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[Il Palazzo]

Alright, I can see why you'd think that.

I'm not trying to assert any such superiority a priori. The thread title is a joke. I merely state that I've seen this repeated countless of times in the crappy pop-sci-history-docudramas, and would like to see some arguments to prove otherwise - as obviously at least some of the posters here see it that way.

But I'm not going to replace one talking head with another. I don't pay much attention to either.

I think I speak for every other fellow bay12ver interested in the subject: please show us something concrete! If you want to educate us, do so properly.

[mainiac]

and would like to see some arguments to prove otherwise - as obviously at least some of the posters here see it that way.

I see it that way too.  And my argument was that the traits that people

think are important about the German tanks are unimportant.  That armor?  Well...

soon after their first campaign in North Africa, American and British troops started phasing out their 76mm AT guns and putting more emphasis on their 75mm guns for their HE ability.

Those giant phalluses guns?

Well Zolaga in Armored thunderbolt found that about a quarter of American tank losses due to gunfire were caused by 88mm.  Losses due to gunfire were themselves only half of losses.  Most gunfire losses were due to 75mm gusn

Right here are the two big things about German tanks that people use to treat them as wunderwaffen based on design.  The armor was thick (on the front) and the gun was big.  And I say neither of them counted nearly as much as people think.  Then there is the kill ratio which I covered extensively in my first post.  I'm not just pulling this from my ass, I'm giving solid reasons.

[Lord Shonus]

You see the Problem there? The Americans only fought properly against the Germans starting at the same date as you stated above, so they still lost 20.000 tanks and armored vehicles to the Germans 2,200+

The United States Army was in heavy combat with the Germans in Africa from May 1942 until the total German defeat in that theater in May 1943 (during which period the Germans lost ~2500 tanks (not including other armored vehicles like TDs and SPGs like the 20,000 figure for the Americans) bringing the total to 4700+) and in Italy from September 1943 until May 1945 (I can't find a listing of German vehicle losses in this campaign, but they are known to be very heavy considering the Axis lost ~336,650 dead and wounded in the campaign.) This campaign, in fact, was why the 76mm Shermans were left behind on D-Day - with no long sightlines to deal with, the German armor was being destroyed with great ease, and analysis of the wrecks from the campaign (along with data from the Soviets, who also found the German tanks to be very poor and dangerous only because of the famed German tactical skill) lead to live-fire exercises against plates of the same thickness and angle. These tests showed that all Allied guns could easily handle the Tiger and the (expected to be rare) Panther due to an oversight - the Americans favored a relatively soft steel for their armor plate to reduce the risk of spalling (the harder steel is, the more brittle it becomes, causing deadly shards of metal to fly around inside the vehicle if the armor is hit hard enough (often without even penetrating - the British High Explosive Squash Head round was designed to take advantage of this), which is one reason why the US tanks (the Sherman in particular) had an average of .37 tankers killed and .57 wounded for every vehicle knocked out when the German standard was 2-3 depending on type. A fairly comprehensive explanation of this test, and a later one after combat conditions didn't match up, can be found beginning here.

That doesn't count tanks destroyed by the Japanese, lost in transit due to U-boat or air attack, and even with an entire campaign on the Western front and the entirety of the Eastern Front, we're far past your blind assertion that the Germans lost only 4000 tanks.

[mainiac]

(expected to be rare) Panther

Hitler often is mistaken for brilliant because he did things so stupid that people didn't plan for them.  In this case, insisting a 45 ton tank could replace one that weighed under 30 tons.  He was wrong and the Panther was a dud but it did surprise the western allies that Panthers outnumbered the Panzer IVs they were expecting to see.

[Jopax]

Funnily enough the Panther was supposed to weigh around 30 tons intially. But good ol' Al just had to slap on more armour and dakka onto it, that silly old fool. Think it was the same with the Tiger too.

[Rolan7]

Fun read guys, thanks!  PTW

[mainiac]

I believe that was why the name Panther was chosen in the first place, give it a name that speaks lightness and agility so Hitler keeps it light.

The original design was good an innovative though.  It probably would have been the best tank of the war tactically if it had been made at least on a tank for tank basis.

[Jopax]

Which one? Afaik there were two proposals, one was mostly a copy of the T-34 in form while the other was more similar to the Panther we know of today.

[mainiac]

I think it's the vk3002?  Outperform the T-34 but do so without massively overcompensating.  Ironically while the Soviets and Americans could  just put a bigger turret on their tanks and overcome the Panther armor without changing their core design, responding the the vk3002 would have required much more extensive improvements.

[Jopax]

No the 3002 Is the Panther. The two prototypes were either MAN or Daimler-Benz. The DB one was the more-less copy of the T-34 and was generally preffered by everyone. The MAN got selected because apparently it shared some parts with other tanks and didn't need a brand new engine and turret design.

[mainiac]

The final panther or the earlier design?

[Lord Shonus]

No the 3002 Is the Panther. The two prototypes were either MAN or Daimler-Benz. The DB one was the more-less copy of the T-34 and was generally preffered by everyone. The MAN got selected because apparently it shared some parts with other tanks and didn't need a brand new engine and turret design.

VK 30.02 was the code for all prototypes in the Panther project. There were 3 prototypes in the initial series - the VK 30.02(MAN), VK30.02(DB), and a second VK30.02(MAN) submission that was heavily refined. The (DB) was essentially a T-34/76 in feldgrau built to German dimensions, the initial (MAN) proposal was very similar but with suspension and turret derived from the Tiger project, and the updated (MAN) refined most of the flaws when the developers learned that the DB was about to be selected for production - in the end Hitler went with the MAN design because it used more existing components and thus could (theoretically) be put into production faster, but immediately ordered an extra 10 tons (1/3 the original target weight of the tank!) of gun and armor added.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Can we also discus other world war weaponry?

[mainiac]

Can we also discus other world war weaponry?

No

[DJ]

But Germany would fare a lot better in airplanes comparison