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[Xinrai]

Well hello there! This is my first post here, so I just wanted to get that out of the way.

I just got back in to the game after a break of several months (not going to wait for any update or anything), and there is something that I have been meaning to aspire, and which I actually did try to do a few times back. I want to design a fortress, one which can create an impression of awe and brilliance.
Well... there are lots of ways to start doing that, but I have something more specific in mind. But no details or anything too fixed or set in stone (pun intended?).
Instead of explaining with words what kind of a fortress I have been inspired to do, I will take you to a tour over what gave me this idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cX-bidFhfU
Clicking on the link above will take you to a video with a nice soundtrack, but, more importantly, a vision of something that I wish to see done. (The video isn't made by me or anything)
I wouldn't be telling the truth if I would say that I hadn't been inspired by this game (Heroes of Might and Magic V) to try something like this for this game (Dwarf Fortress).

So, essentially, a large pit, with a fortress built around it (see? The video is more useful and informative than me just saying that).
A volcano or magma/lava at the bottom is completely optional for me, and I am not looking to recreate exactly what was on the video. I have tried this before, and while I haven't done completely miserably, the fortresses haven't lasted for them to have been anywhere near to being complete.

I don't know if anyone has a community fort like this already built or showcased, and I am not sure if I will do something like that, but this thread is here for the following purposes:

- To hopefully have people talk about ideas for this kind of fort. On how to design it, how to protect it, where to have it, what to work on.
- To have me reporting on what I have done and is it working. If someone else feels inspired enough to start a fort like this, or already has past experience in something like this, feel free to also report and tell what you have done for your pit.

I am about to start a new game, so any suggestions about biomes or other pre-embark stuff will not make it for that one, but feel free to still throw ideas around for that.
Things that I am going to be deciding/thinking about to start out:

1. What kind of a shape will the pit be? Will I do a reversed cone, like a drill, and have the surface of the fortress with a massive hole that becomes smaller and smaller as it goes further below the ground? Or will I do it the other way around? Or will I make it just one steep drop like a straight cliffside?

2. What kind of defenses will I build? How screwed am I if flying things come at me?

3. Outdoors, in the pit. With my previous attempts for a fort like this, I have made (or begun to make) rooms with doors leading out to the pit. Then I would have many sets of bridges connecting around the entire thing, essentially allowing dwarves to move in a circle to the other side (nice for preventing cave adaptation). Should I try designing this for every z level?

4. Traps. One thing that should definitely be fun! is doing the thing I said in part 3. and then having a lever to retract all bridges surrounding the cliff. With a siege, I can let the invaders get to the pit, then just seal the doors (hopefully with no dwarves left outside), and then retract the only thing those goblins (or whichever) can stand on and let them fall. This would make it useful for there being something deadly underneath, although even if I make some lake of water to the bottom, it should still be fun watching them tumble down to it.



All discussion is welcome
(or not all discussion... just ones that stay relatively on topic or are humorous)
Also apologies for possibly bad/confusing English (not my native language)

[omega_dwarf]

Volcanoes will be your friend for a project like this. Look for them when picking your embark site. They're often very similar to what you showed in that video, providing an already-partially-completed hole for you. If you don't like the dangerous magma spurts, you can obsidianify the top layer while you build (or permanently) and drop it later.

Try to smooth the sides of your pit so your enemies won't be able to climb. To that effect, balconies and outcroppings will make things look cooler, but will potentially endanger your citizens - if you do make any, put an overlarge roof over it with spikes on top to (hopefully) kill invaders or (alternatively) make it harder for them to climb down into your mayor's lavafront property.

But yeah, smooth stuff; engrave it if you can, because it looks cool. If you're looking to turtle, put a retracting bridge assembly over the top (making sure no bridge is supported purely by other bridges.) Since you have a pit, a defense against invaders might be a gateway to the caverns that you control (unleashing FB's, etc.) Flying units will be trouble, but have marksdwarves behind fortifications inside your pit and you *might* be fine. Retractable spikes, a dense flooring material, and/or water/lava at the bottom of your pit will help kill flying enemies that you stun and tumble down from the sky.

Waterfall would look cool, but it would either have to be a closed system (like a fountain) or drain into the caverns and off the map, and would pretty much depend on availability
of surface water if you don't want to build a pump stack.

As long as you don't have openings in the walls too close to the rim of the smoothed pit, the only wall-like defense you should need is an overhang around the rim. (Makes it very hard - but not impossible, I think - for invaders to climb down any farther.)

You may want to make sure no trees overhang your pit. Enemies could climb them or get stuck in them and scare your dwarves.

That's about all I've got. Most of your fort's functionality should be inside the cliffs, not in the open areas. Make that a statue garden, plaza, market, or parade ground, if it's not lava.

[Loud Whispers]

A volcano works just fine, though you'll have to do a lot of digging to get proper magma drainage and widen the caldera a bit to house a lot of Dwarves. While it'd take more effort to dig out a pit into the ground on a normal embark and pump magma up into it... I think that'd look nicer. That's just my opinion though, I don't doubt a smoothed out volcano that's been carved into some tower-like colosseum with magma beneath it would look absolutely incredible. I would assume the design would be cylindrical, and the magma added when it's completed as a final touch. Defence can be done quite neatly with a retinue of crossbowdwarves, that would also solve the flier issue. For ground critters if you're using a volcano you should just be able to unleash a horrendous magma flood on invaders and burn them to cinders!

[Niddhoger]

There are a couple problems with a volcano.

1) they are mountains.  The "pit" part is hard to sell when your "pit" starts at 50 z-levels above the surface and ends 30 z-levels above it.

2) they have a set shape.  Every volcano/magma tube is from the exact same template.  If you want it bigger or wider, you'll have a ton of engineering to do.

3) This doesn't pretain to z-levels, I often find that volcanos are not very deep (after the lava).  You often lack even a single complete layer once above the lava.  If you want that "pit" feel, you'll have to either "plug up" the partial layers of the caldera or outright construct them.  You can always keep re-embarking until you find a volcano with a suitable deep/intact caldera, though.

4) fire imps.  Volcanoes are linked to the magma sea, so anything that lives in the sea will eventually "swim" up the volcano and begin harassing your dorfs.  One way to get around this yet preserve the thematic feel of the lava-pit, is to drain a layer of magma out and build a floor to "cap" the volcano.  Then pump that magma back over that floor.  You get lava at the bottom of your pit, but no unwelcome guests.

Honestly, I'd just dig a hole in the ground.  You want that "pit' feel, right? It can be dug out from a mountain/hillside as well.  You have two options, either channel that pit down to the magma sea (some worlds are actually fairly shallow of only 40-50, but others could be 100+ levels).  Or, you could dig the pit however deep you feel (20-30 levels?) and then pump in a layer or two of magma for the bottom.  You may consider incorporating a magma piston for this last part.  If you are digging through caverns, you can either wall them up, or collapse layers of rock onto them to form "natural" walls.  Check the magma-piston guide on the wiki for tips on this.  You'll have to carefully shave/carve the ceiling of the cavern so that it collapses perfectly into the floor. 

As you do the above, you'll naturally get a bit of a cone shape.  The video you linked oesn't look much wider at the top than the bottom and has a very gradual gradient.  If you wanted to mimic that, you'd want to subtract maybe a floor every z-level or every other z-level.  This would also produce natural walk-ways and balconies.  Or, you could make the whole thing a sheer pit.  I personally feel this would be a little more dwarfy (less organic).  You don't even have to have a set shape, either.  Your "pit" could be cross shaped, or incorporate some intact stone in the middle.  Around the rim of your pit could be general living quarters and workshops, but you could leave a central spire/tower down the middle to serve as a fortress.  This central spire coudl also be the only thing that connects to the surface and underground, and thus has all your soldiers in it.  Or, you could use it to "turtle" by having it only connect to the outside via 1-2 bridges.  During "trouble" you can pop an alert to move all your civilians inside that central spire.  You'd probably want at least a modest cistern (on the bottom few levels?) as well as a food/drink stockpile and maybe even some emergency farmland. 

One final problem with the basic design of the fort, is lack of a centralized nexus.  Without the central spire, dorfs on one side of the rim will need to walk a long ways around the curve of the pit to reach a stockpile on the other side.  You might consider decentralizing your fortress layout, and have multiple smaller dining rooms and kitcens.  Living quarters can also be built in separate wings and carefully assigned.  This arc of the pit is or metalurgy, lets put a small dining room and living quarters for -just- these guys.  A system of minecart tracks might not be a bad idea either to move goods faster.  Ore (or even food/drink) can be loaded up on one side then zipped to the other.  If you have a very large pit (50 wide) this starts to be an issue.  Criss-crossing the pit with numerous walkways somewhat defeats the impact of having the "giant pit of doom," so I'd consider using bridges sparingly. 

Hmmm Personally I'd dig a straight pit down while smoothing the sides as you went.  I'd probably stop around 20-z levels.  I'd strip the dirt layers as well, but leave that middle spire.  I'd construct a floor (ending in a bridge) to the top of the spire.  This would be large enough to hold a trade depot+stairs, but still be symetrical... 7x7? I'd house a barracks under this and my noble quarters.  After the Inn upgrade, it'd naturally go here too.  I'd leave walkways (out of natural stone) to serve as bridges on the 10th level of the pit.  You -can- build walkways out of bridges to retract, but I'd prefer movement to be tunnels just inside the rim.  Walking right next to the ledge can lead to... complications.  I'd definitely need to carefully plan the fortress to keep related workshops interconnected, perhaps using minecarts to move goods between clusters with personal rooms near their workshops.  Honestly, a huge problem will simply be using up so much space.  With several z-levels of space around the entire rim... Most will likely be living quarters with "windows" to the pit (glass windows perffered to open air).  Don't forget that weapon traps that are dodged leave the victim in a different square.  This is why those fighting near pits often jump right into them, so you could line walkways with said traps to encourage invaders to go for a dive.  Your biggest threat, enemy-wise, is going to be flyers.  While smoothing the stone will keep invaders from hopping into your pit (another reason to keep it sheer, they'll hop into it/slide down easy enough), flyers will just go wherever they want.  There really is no way around this without decking over your pit.  Another option would be similar to what I was saying earlier- you don't have the interior rim open to the sky, but instead use windows (or walls of clear glass) to connect to the rim.  Your fortress will consist of a line of workshops and tunnels thaht are never more than 5 spaces from the rim.  If you keep things open, your going to have huge problems with squads of goblin bat riders and rocs.

[Xinrai]

It is really nice to see some discussion. I may talk over some of it more in-depth later and maybe start a new fortress, following some advice. I didn't really begin with any grand blueprint for the first one, but I have got some work done. Been almost three years, nothing big has happened yet. Some random stuff that I am feeling:

- I still have ramps going about most of the way, meaning that the hole gets a bit smaller the way down, and I am keeping a wall outside as the primary defense instead of any bridge-traps... at least for now. I will start making a more straight drop before the hole gets too small. I can't channel too much on some of the sides because I would end up destroying the walls of some of the rooms.

- I didn't want the hole be too small, but not too big either because of the time it would take to get to the other side. This got in some kind of a weird middle ground. I started out with the hole pretty small, but I am still expanding it every once in a while to the sides (going around any rooms so that I don't destroy their walls, like I said above). I will keep making it deeper and deeper, of course, although I will probably try shield it from caverns once i'm there. Now I have some rooms which are sort of "sticking out" on the walls of the hole, which is making it quite different from a smooth cliffside. I kinda like it. It feels more natural than simply having a straight wall run down 50 z-levels.

- I may expand the hole outwards once deeper underground. There isn't going to be daylight to all of it but maybe the pillar of light in the middle will make people happy.

- I am probably going to smooth everything out but that isn't a very high priority for me.

- No casualties to falling after three years. I don't know why there should be because, like I said earlier, it is still largely channeled and no smooth drops, not to mention not even being up to cavern-depth yet. But still, I am so proud of my little non-slippery dorfs!

- Vermin clogging up the bottom and other areas outside in the hole. Should I allow vermin remains to be gathered outside as well? Oh, damn you cats.


I just closed the game before I figured to type out some technical info that I was thinking about making a note of like how wide is the hole on the surface, but oh well. Maybe next time.

[AbanShakehandles]

(this is occurring on 34.11, in hopes of attracting a bit of goblin attention)

I've been embarking upon this endeavor with you, and am pleased with the progress my dorfs have made.
We are on year 3 and have finally reached the rock layers of the ~60x80 tile pit (should have brought 3 miners, no mason.)
Here's the farm layer (with sunlit booze stockpile):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There have been a few minor injuries during the excavation, but after the lead miner's left hand become horribly injured, I think I know what may be causing the problems.

This thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=102632.0) discussed the safety of undertaking a large excavation such as this; there was a bit of controversy regarding the necessity of removing any residual up-ramps before designating the next layer for channeling. I think I might have cracked the mystery.

It would seem as though an empty up-ramp designated for channeling will not collapse when pick meets stone.
However, should there be a chunk of stone (or 3, as tends to happen the deeper you go) occupying said ramp, they will fall on some poor dorf/dog/baby/cat when the miner gets down to business.

Best of luck to you Xinrai, hope this helps. Please keep us posted.

Our fortunes rise and fall together.

[klefenz]

I once dug a fortress that was a hole all the way down to the magma sea, with a city built around circular walkways around the hole.
It was covered with a glass ceiling, and the only way in was through a drawbridge on the top, crossing the hole.
Dozens of dwarves died in the construction, but there never was any tantrums or anything (I used multiple smaller dinning halls instead of a large one, also everyone was very busy)
By the moment I stopped playing, the for had a militia of 10 melee dwarves with masterwork steel armor and weapons, plus some artifacts, and 10 crossbow dwarves in steel armor.
This fort never fell.

[Xinrai]

(this is occurring on 34.11, in hopes of attracting a bit of goblin attention)

I've been embarking upon this endeavor with you, and am pleased with the progress my dorfs have made.
We are on year 3 and have finally reached the rock layers of the ~60x80 tile pit (should have brought 3 miners, no mason.)
Here's the farm layer (with sunlit booze stockpile):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There have been a few minor injuries during the excavation, but after the lead miner's left hand become horribly injured, I think I know what may be causing the problems.

This thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=102632.0) discussed the safety of undertaking a large excavation such as this; there was a bit of controversy regarding the necessity of removing any residual up-ramps before designating the next layer for channeling. I think I might have cracked the mystery.

It would seem as though an empty up-ramp designated for channeling will not collapse when pick meets stone.
However, should there be a chunk of stone (or 3, as tends to happen the deeper you go) occupying said ramp, they will fall on some poor dorf/dog/baby/cat when the miner gets down to business.

Best of luck to you Xinrai, hope this helps. Please keep us posted.

Our fortunes rise and fall together.

Thank you!
That hole is certainly bigger than the one I dug out. Looks awesome!
I will keep the warning about ramps in mind.

(I used multiple smaller dinning halls instead of a large one)

This is a good idea. I didn't even think about it, but that makes sense if the journey to the other side gets too large. And making large rooms can lead to the fortress "leaning" more towards one side if there is a giant hole dividing it.


I have been thinking about making a new fort when the update comes. One weird idea I had was making a bridge across in the middle and placing a temple an equal distance away from both sides. If there is a god for magma, then definitely a temple for that deity should be surrounded by a river of it. And it would be on the literal centre of the fortress.
Although a tavern in a place like that sounds good too...

[Loud Whispers]

In regards to channeling, never channel more than one layer at once or bad things happen and Dwarves die.

[angelious]

hmm. well one project i have been dreaming about is a full on vampire fort...

[AbanShakehandles]

Xinrai,
If you're still digging a bit pit, here's a suggestion:

Scout out the caverns before your excavation gets there.

This had slipped my mind, but I lucked into it digging a drain for the well.
Here's to hoping there's a enough rock at the bottom of the pit for some controlled cave-ins.

[vanatteveldt]

I think the dorfiest way to deal with the caverns is simply leave them be, ie just open them up to the side into your pit. With some nice overhangs and smoothing nothing should get out except fliers, and some marksdwarves should be able to deal with those. If a flying FB shows up, hope that your marksdwarves are up to it

[AbanShakehandles]

I think the dorfiest way to deal with the caverns is simply leave them be, ie just open them up to the side into your pit. With some nice overhangs and smoothing nothing should get out except fliers, and some marksdwarves should be able to deal with those. If a flying FB shows up, hope that your marksdwarves are up to it

Foreman: Belay that dig order!
Miner: Sir?
Foreman: I'll be in my office, this one has a few ideas...

[taptap]

If you scout through different embarks you might find 1) already empty vulcanoes (empty pits down to magma sea exist) +  in flat landscape 2) sizeable deep pits in caverns (I saw some stretching over 60-70 z-levels).

Since I build deep, I personally would put either an aquarium on top of my pit town or even camouflage the whole thing with a lake on top (I like to make a camo topside), basically plugging the pit this way, while still imagining some sunlight filtering through the aquarium and its glass floor (roleplay) allowing me to cultivate strawberries at z100 at the bottom of the pit. I once tried sth. like this in an empty vulcano (not sure about the scale you have in mind), but since I had large waterfalls from caverns right into the magma sea (from start) and bad pathing on top, my fort grinded to an early fps death. If you want to enjoy such a fort for some time, think about fps before you start.

[Xinrai]

Well, better late than never. I'm here again with a little update on a new fortress I just started.

Not everything has been set in stone yet. Get it? Stone? Dwarf Fort... nevermind (I just realized I made that joke on the first post. But it has been long enough that I consider it fresh again).

I embarked on a mountain/forest area. Flat land would probably be more ideal, but I wanted to have it on something uneven for some reason.
I will still expand the pit, but this is the start.

Here's a few pictures during the first steps:



We are still early in the first year, so there's not a huge amount to show yet. This is above the pit.
You can see my farm area where there's soil. I started digging that before the pit. It will connect to the rest of the fortress just fine over there. There's a ramp up to the surface, I will be blocking that soon.
The beginnings of the central spire are also visible from here. It will reach this level at some point, too.


Trade depot is already on the works, I will make a bridge west. In the end, I will have walls around the pit, and a gate, also probably through the west, but I need to figure out how large exactly the pit will be before I set them up. I will also build a floor up the trade depot (for marksdorfs to shoot out of, maybe), so it will have a roof.
Oh, and I checked, and my civilization has a giant chinchilla deity of volcanoes and mountains... You can guess whose temple there will be on the lowest level of the central spire. It won't go down to the magma sea (although who knows. But probably not), but still deep into the mountain.


First workshops are done, as is a dorm. You can see the path leading to the farm.
The built walls on the southern end of the spire are a result of a little miscalculation on my part... Oh well. The things I do for symmetry (I will smooth the rest too, ofc)


Doesn't go deeper yet, but it will. I do think it would have been interesting to have a long drop before even getting to the fortress, but maybe later. I didn't want to wait that long for them to dig.


So. I am planning on at least 1 or 2 walkways that circle the pit and are above ground. Probably around where the kitchen and still are now and one level deeper. The levels below will have straight drops, so building floors around it would mean being above the floors of the upper level.
I will probably replace the floors with bridges at some point for a trap. And the rooms will also all be connected without needing to go outside, so I can lock all the dorfs inside.

Also note that I won't be keeping the pit as square as it is now. I will expand it in ways that it will have a lot more corners and that it goes around some rooms (not fully around, except for the central spire). But first I will probably channel it further down and further south and east. I do aim for the central spire to be as central as it can be.
And of course, the walls around the pit will be one of the next things I do. I won't have a retracting bridge to fully cover the pit though. But there won't be any flyers coming in right away, right DF? Right? Please?



I will try to keep more regular updates now, you can expect another one maybe during the next weekend. I'll see how far I will get by then.

Questions are okay.

EDIT: I know the fort looks exposed. And yeah, it kinda is. But I will be planning where the wall goes shortly. The first migrant wave hasn't even hit yet, and I have some dogs, so I believe in new fortress luck for a while more. If that exists.