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Author Topic: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?  (Read 9876 times)

Levi

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2015, 04:53:08 pm »

I usually like the outright rules of the game to be pretty easy to understand.  I don't mind if the game is hard(IE: Spacechem or Dark Souls), but things that are immediately complex(Crusader Kings or Grand-Strategy games) tend to put me off.

Multiplayer team games with complexity tend to put me off even more because I don't want to mess up my team by playing badly, while singleplayer I don't mind playing badly to learn what is effective.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 04:55:15 pm by Levi »
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WealthyRadish

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2015, 04:58:29 pm »

I believe truly good games are capable of teaching you seamlessly as you play them, or at least setting up situations in which you can learn and improve just by playing.

I think this can be true in many cases, but the "seamlessly" part is very important. If done right, it's fine, and the game provides a consistently fun and challenging experience throughout the learning period, but the problem is that it's so rarely done right. I'd say a solid 90% of the games I've played that have come out in the last 8 years or so have started off with unskippable "tutorial levels" that spend upwards of half an hour wasting the player's time as though they've never used a keyboard before. And then when you finally do get into the game's meat, and new mechanics are steadily introduced, it's often a complete waste when a mechanic is introduced halfway (or later) through a game that only has 4-8 hours of singleplayer anyway (as is often the case with new games).

I think really what it comes down to is whether the game is even worth having a learning period. Things like UI incomprehensibility and lack of polish become completely irrelevant once the player understands the game's mechanics, and if the game's simple and doesn't have much to learn anyway, it'd be better off just frontloading everything rather than staggering out what little of substance it does have.

Mutiplayer games like MOBAs, they're a whole other bag of chips.
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Neonivek

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2015, 02:01:25 am »

With multiplayer games I think the issue is we are starting to see ones where if you aren't making the ideal moves you aren't playing well.

You either conform to the "one way to play" or you suck. Coupled with the fact that these multiplayer games might have ideal ways to play, but they not only don't make it immediately obvious but often.

Then the fact that a lot of these games aren't fun unless you are playing in the ideal fashion. For some games it only matters if players are also experienced.

Finally to just to put the final nail in the coffin the community itself outright polices itself to ensure that all its members are playing in a ideal fashion.

CS: Go... Is fun even if you don't pick the best guns, but the fact that its community polices you kills the game.

League of Legends on the other hand... Has obvious ideal builds, isn't fun unless you can use them (or pick a character who takes no skill), hides these builds, puts them behind level gates, and has a community dedicated to policing you if you as much as don't make a good build... and because of Smurfs and "faux-pros" it means you get them forever.

If anything I think the policing in multiplayer games is what makes them so bad. Even League of Legends, a game I only modesty like at the best of times, would be enjoyable if I only had games with fun supportive people who gave me tips rather then tear me down.

Yet for games like say Hearthstone. The fact that it is so impossible to become competent at the game because of the insane power creep hurts it, as well as the game's lack of transparency.
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kilakan

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2015, 06:48:37 am »

I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring so y'all can eat it.

I play CS:GO a lot, I used to suck at it but not so much anymore.  All the guns are useful, and there is always a time and a place for them, but if you have the money in a ranked game you should be at least attempting to buy a good gun for that price.  The community is not nearly as bad as all you make it out to be.  In my... 75 some games of ranked so far, I think the team got mad at me maybe once, and since you can report people for being dicks it doesn't really come up much.  Maybe you used to not be able to do that?  I dunno but you can now so most of the arseholes are week-banned at this point.

DoTa 2:Re Moba's: I have some... 3000 shameful hours in dota2.  I'm not gonna defend the community because a lot of them are quite bad, but it's been getting better as valve implements the 'report people for being mean' tactics in that as well.  There is sure, optimal builds for certain heroes but it's certainly not a case of 'only one way to play.'  There's also the fact that after two or three games of it you'll be skill ranked into a group of equally skilled players and be able to have fun no matter what you do because no one is a 'pro' in the games you get put in.

Hearthstone:I like hearthstone, it is impossible to be good at unless you pay.  Enough said really.

LoL:I hate lol, I hate it's community and I hate the developers.  Making people either play the game tons, or pay to unlock heroes is not a smart game mechanic, especially when so many of them outright suck.

Complicated games RE:CK2:  I always just look at these sort of games like chess, the mindset it takes to play as well as the insanely complicated tactics are what make it fun for some people like me.  They certainly aren't for everyone though, but for the nieche of gamers who like to be able to win via overwhelming tactical success... they are quite fun.

HARD games:  Dark Souls, and other 'you will die a lot' games.:  It may be that I was raised on old games where you quite frequently died, you got reset to level one when you did die,  and the game was exceptionally hard.  But regardless, I still find them fun, more so than a lot of easier games as there is massive satisfaction in finnally beating a boss that took 10-20 tries.  For me personally there's no fun in a game where the chance of losing is never even within sight, aside from really good stories like Walking Dead ala animated novel type things.

Games that _need_ a rule book to learn: Once more... I am probably one of the smaller group of people here who has played a lot of games from the 90's and some from even before that.  A good example being King of Dragon Pass, that game barely tells you anything about what you need to do to play it, as it assumes you read the rule book.  There was a point in time that  videogames in general assumed you read the little booklets that came with them, and yes some modern games don't have those but are still just as abstract.  Once more I feel that it's unfair to say that they aren't fun or enjoyable because it's 'too much work' or whatever to read a rule book.  Personally I just look at it like tabletop games, you kinda need to read a rule book to be able to play, and once over that barrier they tend to be quite fun.

On the opposite side of the spectrum:Tutorials-Tutorials that you can't skip often make the games unenjoyable for me, Sims4 for example completely destroyed my will to play that game since everytime I wanted to make a new household, I needed to sit through 30-40 minutes of pop up windows.  I vastly prefer games with a booklet guide as opposed to a long tutorial since you can read the guide once and then play immediately anytime you want instead of sitting through hours of hand holding BS that you already know.
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miauw62

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2015, 06:54:28 am »

I really hope valve is going to put equal effort into TF2 matchmaking, I'm sort of tired off getting rolled in lobbies because the teams are always stacked.
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kilakan

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2015, 06:58:33 am »

Somehow I doubt it, TF2 seems to be seriously on valves back burner lately.  Especially considering that CSGO and Dota2 both have global tournaments every week, and I'm not sure tf2 gathers quite that much interest.
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Jopax

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2015, 07:08:37 am »

@Neonivek

About the LoL bit. At what point does LoL hide stuff from you? Every charachter has an optimal build for a given situation, and for most it's pretty straightforward and is place right there in the shop in the recommended tab, heck, it gives you options which you can pick depending on how well you can read the situation and you might need for it. As far as guides go, there's hundreds of guides, both written and video form for pretty much every single champion, sure they're not integrated into the game itself but that's not an excuse to not go and look them up.

If you're talking about runes and masteries, that's a form of progression, sure, they help out a bunch if you have them, but you can do just fine without them, and the fun part is, it's the same for everyone because you'll generally play against folks that are in your level area (and the couple of levels of difference rarely will matter, especially with low level runes), unless you play with friends which are higher level, in which case that's your own fault. As far as smurfs go, you can have those in pretty much any game and it's not an issue that's specific to LoL, heck, LoL does a pretty good job of separating those people from the actual begginers within a couple of games because it does track you early performance to figure out if you lied about being a smurf or not.

And yes, the community can and will be shit a good part of the time, but most people won't give two shits about your build if you're doing ok and aren't being an ass.
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Neonivek

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2015, 12:32:25 pm »

Quote
All the guns are useful

Well ignoring the starting pistol which is one of the few weapons that fail to kill on an unarmored headshot. There are like 3 weapons that I'd say are "useless" in that there is never a reason you should buy it over another (except that they are awesome weapons).

 
Quote
At what point does LoL hide stuff from you?

The enemies are building HP and you are a physical damage dealer. This is something you need to read a guide for.

The game doesn't aid you in its own mechanics and flow of gameplay, of which most of it is impossible to know with just reasonable solo effort. I as heck didn't know you had to adjust your entire build according to what the opponent is building until I read a guide... then I wondered if counter building is so important why doesn't the recommended items reflect this?

Then I realized that League of Legends doesn't WANT to teach you how to play the game. That is why it locks out flash, that is why its recommended items are often so poor, and that is why the AI is so limited. The game isn't for new players, it is for people who already know how to play.
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GentlemanRaptor

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2015, 01:07:26 pm »

I read through Falcon 4.0's 270 and WitPAE's 350 page manuals before I started playing.

Oof. The manual for Falcon 4.0 Allied Force was the bane of my existence. It didn't come printed with my copy, so I had to get it printed first (which took a FUCKTON of ink, thankyouverymuch) and then try to learn basic ACM from it. Which is harder than it looks.
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kilakan

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2015, 01:12:48 pm »

Quote
All the guns are useful

Well ignoring the starting pistol which is one of the few weapons that fail to kill on an unarmored headshot. There are like 3 weapons that I'd say are "useless" in that there is never a reason you should buy it over another (except that they are awesome weapons).
The starting pistol's bonus is that it's free, making it crucial in the first round, and subsequent save rounds in ranked.

If you are talking about non-ranked mode than yeah there's a lot of useless guns, in comp though every gun has it's niche.
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Jopax

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2015, 01:15:42 pm »

Because those are advanced game mechanics you pick up over time and usually from guides, people who know them are the people who want to go that extra step to be better. I had no idea about counterbuilding by level twenty but it didn't really hurt me since my enemies didn't know about it either. And most of counterbuilding is really intuitive too once you learned most of the items and what they do, which should happen if you pay any attention to what you're buying.

And recommended items are good most of the time for most of the champs, they're guidelines from which to pick according to your situation. Enemy building armor? Look at what gives you armor penetration or armor reduction. Enemy building HP? Build Botrk. Enemy building HP and you're AP? Build Liandry. It really isn't that complicated to figure out what counters what once you know the relationships between the stats. And because there isn't that many of them those relationships are obvious and few in number.
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TripJack

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2015, 01:19:10 pm »

i put up with DF long enough to learn how to play, so i guess i go pretty far

So a long long time ago in the ages of old there were games that while praised for their story telling and gameplay were bashed because you needed to read a guide in order to play.
such as?

But MOBAs, Roguelikes, and now even card games (mostly because of super limited resources against a world of people with infinite resources) all now depend highly on this meta knowledge.
not all roguelikes depend highly on meta knowledge, but i'd agree that the ones like nethack that do are not good
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Neonivek

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2015, 02:30:04 pm »

Point and Clicks.
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kilakan

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2015, 02:36:26 pm »

Like what?  Myst or something?  I enjoy point and clicks and don't find em confusing in general...
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Shadowlord

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Re: How far are you willing to go in order to enjoy a game?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2015, 02:43:41 pm »

IMHO you needed guides for 90s point and click adventure games because the puzzles tended to be based on insane troll logic, and expected you to be the kwisatz haderach.

I just noped out of the entire genre.

OTOH, I'm perfectly willing to read a several hundred page manual for a good strategy game, and did so for dominions 4 (and still look stuff up in it).


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