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[Neonivek]

I LOVE the point and click genre, but yeah a lot of them outright require guides even if you were the smartest person on earth.

With all those planted unwinnable situations, outright insane logic, and stuff.

Mind you I don't think point and clicks are as bad as their reputation (They have a internal logic that is usually easy to pick up on. Usually even the most insane solution makes sense and reflects more the players' inability to channel the game)

But either way point and clicks were called out for often required guides

But now? A lot of games require guides.

[Greenbane]

I'm not averse to reading and learning about a game's mechanics if I have to, provided I see potential in it to begin with (i.e. Dwarf Fortress, Paradox games). That said, I don't feel obligated to read guides about every reasonably deep game I play, as I don't mind learning things on the go.

I don't really play competitive multiplayer games much. They're generally timesinks which bore me before long, as I'm past the age of obsessing over a single game.

[Robsoie]

There are complex games that from reading about them i know i can enjoy and that i'm willing to go the extra miles to learn the gameplay mechanics, like by example Orbiter, Dwarf Fortress or WinSP:MBT that are unique in what they deliver to me for a specific reason (realistic space/atmosphere flight sim the size of the solar system, unique mix of many builder/RL/lifesim game, wargame with infinite replayability and just everything for post-ww2 to modern time, etc... )

While there are complex games i guess i should be able to enjoy, but can't be bothered to spend any time learning because they're from a genre in which i have already a few titles i still play and enjoy, and does not deliver to me something special that i deem worthy of my time spending in the learning process.

[Shadowlord]

I feel the same way about most competitive games, but I like dominions because it's pbem, takes basically no time to launch, you don't spend your turns just hitting next turn, and strategy can win games (and battles). The different nations aren't necessarily equally powerful, either, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses and it's up to the players to take advantage of or mitigate them. Some are considered really bad choices, but are still choosable as a challenge or handicap, and the very few choices that most people consider OP or a danger to everyone tend to get ganged up on (For example, MA Ermor, whose dominion kills population and raises them as undead, leaving their provinces uninhabited, and thus devoid of supplies for armies, tax income, etc.)

[neotemplar]

For me it has to be Etrian odessy 3. I hated it until i learned how to play properly with etrian 4. Now it's my favorite wizardry type game ever.

[Shadowgandor]

As long as I have fun failing at something, I don't mind spending hours reading manuals and guides to get better at it. Creatures is a game I spent a lot of time on just reading about it, but fooling around with the mechanics still felt like fun

[Tawa]

The only game I think I've ever really had to force myself to like was Monster Hunter. The game is fun, but the entire enjoyment of the game seems to stem from the metagame, and just looking it up casually or hearing about it from a friend doesn't tell you that you basically either need to look up guides or die horribly once or twice to everything before you beat them.

[Mech#4]

I like difficult adventure games, though as Neonivek mentioned, as long as the internal logic is consistent.

I never grew up playing the "Quest" series by Sierra so I'm kind of adverse to the idea of dying in an adventure game, but as long as it is clear from the beginning it's more acceptable to me.

The things that I do not like in an adventure game are... well... it'll be easier if I give some example.

1: The Rumplestiltskin puzzle in the first King's Quest is a good example of a rather large leap of logic. You have to guess the gnomes name but his name is written using a backwards alphabet, so "Ifnkovhgroghprm". There is a piece of paper in one location that mentions that "Sometimes it is wise to think backwards", but the common train of thought is to spell the name backwards as "Nikstlitselpmur".

2: In the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" game (there's a few examples of this in this game but I'll go with one), near the beginning you have to feed a sandwich to a dog. Not doing so leads to your shrunken ship being eaten by the dog much later in the game. Puzzles that leave you in a state of "lost the game" far before you realise it I do not like either.

3: Not a puzzle, but if a text parser is used it should accept more then a single name for objects if there are several. Accept "Tap" and "Faucet". "Petrol" and "Gas". "Wardrobe", "Closet", "Dresser", "Vanity". Etc etc. Pedantry on terms is alright as long as the game responds in such a way to lead the player to the correct term. In "Hugo's House of Horrors" the game only accepts the term "Undo Bolt" to open a locked trapdoor, but typing "Open Bolt" has the game display "Please Say "Undo Bolt".
Text Parsers should also have a few example sentences in a help file to start the player off and so you know the complexity of inputs.

Anything else is pretty much fine. I did not mind the puzzles in "Day of the Tentacle" or "Sam and Max: Hit the Road", even though they can be rather bizarre, because they followed cartoon logic.

[jhxmt]

In "Hugo's House of Horrors" the game only accepts the term "Undo Bolt" to open a locked trapdoor, but typing "Open Bolt" has the game display "Please Say "Undo Bolt".

As another fan of parser-based adventures (as well as point-and-clicks), this approach always infuriated me (and still does today).  The creator's gone to the trouble of making the parser able to recognise that you're trying to say 'undo bolt', but hasn't taken the next logical step of simply making it do what it already knows you're trying to do - instead going to the trouble of coding in an entirely different response to prompt you to do that thing anyway!

It's just...I...the mind boggles! 

[Zangi]

Its not that I'm willing to go that far to enjoy a game... the fact is if I'm interested enough in a game/currently playing it, I'm naturally inclined go out of my way to look up a whole bunch of things on it in my freetime/not at home playing it time.  Or at least look up things during gameplay when I don't know wtf something is about and/or for clarification.

[miauw62]

Somehow I doubt it, TF2 seems to be seriously on valves back burner lately.  Especially considering that CSGO and Dota2 both have global tournaments every week, and I'm not sure tf2 gathers quite that much interest.

Well, the reason Valve has no official tournaments for TF2 (although it does sponsor a few) is probably that they don't have a ranking system. Everything is community-created. There are sites to casually play competitive formats, ranking sites, several community leagues... (and some classes, such as pyro in highlander, are very hard to rank because they don't depend on healing or dpm, their function is entirely support. Engineer could theoretically be measured by kills, but setting up a sentry might be extremely effective in aiding your team, even if it doesn't get any kills, because the enemies are smart enough not to walk into it.)

[ejseto]

Just don't use shotguns or a shield because those are "For noobs"

People who say stuff like that are just rustled that they lost. The proper response to such behavior is to talk shit and rub it in their faces. If you're going to play a competitive game without matchmaking (Elo, etc.), play to win. If that means reading guides or using OP things, so be it. With match-made games you can afford to relax because you play against people just as bad as you, and you can start try-harding at your leisure (don't let anyone tell you that's not the reason you're bronze).

In any case, if you don't play to win, don't complain when you lose. Because people WILL laugh at you. And seriously, why would you want to call someone who killed you a "noob?" I never understood that, denigrating someone who just proved they are superior to you.

Its not that I'm willing to go that far to enjoy a game... the fact is if I'm interested enough in a game/currently playing it, I'm naturally inclined go out of my way to look up a whole bunch of things on it in my freetime/not at home playing it time.  Or at least look up things during gameplay when I don't know wtf something is about and/or for clarification.

This. You don't play to win in order to enjoy the game, you play to win because you enjoy the game. Why else would you be playing it in the first place?

At what point does LoL hide stuff from you?

The enemies are building HP and you are a physical damage dealer. This is something you need to read a guide for.

It's really not. The recommended items are generally quite effective (though you'll still need to exercise some discretion in deciding which, among that small handful, to build, and in what order), and HP stacking is really the easiest defense to deal with, conceptually. There's only like 2 items (BoRK and the thing that builds out of Haunting Guise) that even deal %HP damage, and straight damage is a generally effective way to deal with HP stacking. There's no debate about whether you need armor penetration or not; you just build MORE DAMAGE. How is that difficult, especially when the recommended items will tell you what to build? I believe there are even tips on the recommended items list telling you what each item is good for, e.g. Triforce's famous "tons of damage."

There are a lot of things in LoL that are obscure without a guide/coach to teach you, but dealing damage (the simple numbers, not counting intangibles like positioning) is one of the most obvious. It's simple attrition, and the numbers are exposed for all to see.

[Antioch]

Something that I used to tolerate but don't anymore is any form of grinding.

I can't stand grind based games such as world of tanks, WoW, star wars the old republic or Eve (yes eve has grind, just not for skills but for cash) any more.

Why would I do a repetitive task in a game when the reward is basically always to do it all over again just with a higher number next to my name?

[Neonivek]

If they are building HP then building damage is WRONG!

[Shadowlord]

I played LoL just long enough to get the sign up bonus for the person who invited me, and then I quit forever.