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[Tawa]

Not going to bother with extensive quoting here. On mobile.

Spoiler: It feels weird to not also respond with a spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most of what I posted was, admittedly, basically incoherent. I was a bit caught up in the rush of trying to catch him and kept on accidentally dismissing parts of theories instead of whole ones.

I hereby dismiss my entire theory and will now reform it.

NQT made unnecessary amounts of WIFOM as part of his gambits, which hindered at least two players and led to one player devoting his night action to verifying his claims, which eventually turned out fruitless, in part due to NQT's own actions. He kept up the charade for a day before unceremoniously dropping the façade at the start of day 2. He went so far as to pretend to day kill 4maskwolf, which was entirely uncalled for. He claims to have been reaction fishing but hasn't really made any scum analysis based on reactions yet. Lastly, he was protected by somebody else in addition to himself, which seems like an endless well of WIFOM when I think about why.

Oh, and just to be nitpicky, he would fit his own scumminess model of posting just enough if he didn't have these constsnt debates with me.

If Deus and flabort can vote me long after the RVS based on me making a bad argument, I think that this is plenty fof me to vote based on.

Oh, and the reason I suspected you was... I think that it was based on you and NQT being scumbuddies, pretending to have results on each other and saying that there was a third party involved to drum up controversy.

[Deus Asmoth]

Jack

So are you referring to that inspect which did nothing and therefore didn't accomplish much other than as a reaction test for NQT when you ask people about your test or are you talking about how everyone else responded to it?

Deus: I can understand you looking at only the start stuff.  My language is a bit unclear.  Your shallow, surface-level view of it as only a reaction test for NQT is ridiculous, though.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Reaction test, yes.  For just NQT?  How do you even hit that conclusion even with only taking public statements into account?

Because your test was explicitly just your inspection of NQT that night, to gain information on whether NQT's claims were true or false. Since the test failed because of you getting redirected/blocked, the only useful information you could get based on the parameters of the test were from NQT's reactions to the test, no one else's. Other people's reactions and responses may be useful for the game at large, but they're also irrelevant with regard to what you said the purpose of you inspecting NQT was.

Tawa, if you'd care to recall, I'm not voting for you based on your argument. I'm voting for you for the reasons I've previously laid out. The fact that the only people you're suspicious of besides NQT just happen to be voting for you doesn't really help either.

Two different parties seemingly intervened to stop Jack's test, implying that he's allied with somebody. He seems to have an incredible reliance on theories, without making his own situational judgements.

Playstyle is not a valid reason to vote for someone. Consider the possibility that NQT could be town. In that case, would the scumteam have any benefit in blocking an inspection on someone that at least two players wanted lynched before the test?

There's also this little issue here. He claims that his claims were reaction fishing. Why would he need to pull that to reaction fish? There was absolutely no reason for him to gambit in order to reaction fish. His entire play just seems like one big refuge in audacity.

Lynch all liars isn't something I support; it's too inflexible. Wanting to lynch someone for lying when they've admitted that they were gambitting is just strange. Whether he needed to do that gambit or not, he did get reactions from it and has presented his analysis and ideas based off it. How does that seem like a RiA to you?

[Tawa]

The fact that the only people you're suspicious of besides NQT just happen to be voting for you doesn't really help either.

This is incorrect. Fallacy is not voting for me. TDS is not voting for me.

Two different parties seemingly intervened to stop Jack's test, implying that he's allied with somebody. He seems to have an incredible reliance on theories, without making his own situational judgements.

Playstyle is not a valid reason to vote for someone. Consider the possibility that NQT could be town. In that case, would the scumteam have any benefit in blocking an inspection on someone that at least two players wanted lynched before the test?
[/quote]
You seem to have missed this part.

I hereby dismiss my entire theory and will now reform it.

That said, yes, they would. Which is why I said that. But as I said, that's also an endless well of WIFOM. The fact that there was a block and a redirect could also be a frame-up by the scum, intended to make it look like NQT is not scum.

How did you only read one sentence in my entire last post?

[flabort]

PPe: Jack, who would you say those experienced players are?

flabort: I'd say people like Tiruin, Teneb, NQT, possibly even you...

Anyway, why investigate me, and how willing are you to depend on a 4 in 5 chance of accuracy?  (You having a poor version of a standard power makes sense, by the way.  Sort of like my currently unrevealed power.)

I investigated you because I wanted to make sure your 'test' was for noble intentions. You remember when I said that whether the test was successful or not it wouldn't be indicative of whether or not you were scummy? I still believe that, and picked a method that WOULD be indicative of whether you were scum or not.

As far as whether I'm willing to trust that accuracy... yes, for now, I am willing to bet my life on it.

[Teneb]

If I missed something directed my way, please point it out.

Teneb: You were the first person to vote me during the game. How do you think I look now?

Certainly more active.

As far as whether I'm willing to trust that accuracy... yes, for now, I am willing to bet my life on it.

Why would you be willing to bet your life on a result that has less than 50% chance to be right?

Teneb What is your opinion on what happened day 1? Does anything stand out as new information to you now that two people are dead?

What happened in D1 was NQT dropping his mostly-fake claim, and the newest players (fallacy, mostly) flailing all over it. I don't like to speculate too much on night actions, but the presence of a single kill could indicate that there are not a lot of roles with killing powers around, or that there are a lot of blocks around.

Seems like someone TRIED TO KEEL MY FACE. Also I can't vote because of that. o_o [Basically I am protected from any-kill-at-all, and then I lose my vote the following day. This also encompasses day kills or stuffs under the term of 'KILL {TIRUIN}']

Really? What's this then?

Seems like someone TRIED TO KEEL MY FACE. Also I can't vote because of that. o_o [Basically I am protected from any-kill-at-all, and then I lose my vote the following day. This also encompasses day kills or stuffs under the term of 'KILL {TIRUIN}']

And why did this vote register in the votecount?

Back in D1, NQT had no vote and his name did not appear in the votecount. So, Tiruin, why are you lying?

Damn, it's hard to get back into an in-progress game.

[flabort]

As far as whether I'm willing to trust that accuracy... yes, for now, I am willing to bet my life on it.

Why would you be willing to bet your life on a result that has less than 50% chance to be right?

Teneb What is your opinion on what happened day 1? Does anything stand out as new information to you now that two people are dead?

What happened in D1 was NQT dropping his mostly-fake claim, and the newest players (fallacy, mostly) flailing all over it. I don't like to speculate too much on night actions, but the presence of a single kill could indicate that there are not a lot of roles with killing powers around, or that there are a lot of blocks around.

Eh... not so much, nor would I be completely trusting of up to a 66% chance. 75% and above, though, I'd risk it.

I see. You don't think there is much more information to gain from day 1 with these roleflips.
Hmmm... something about that bugs me, but it's not the same feeling I get when something seems scummy. Not sure what it could mean...

[Deus Asmoth]

Teneb, flabort's claimed inspect has a 3+roleflips/4+roleflips chance of success. That's never less that 50%. Also, there were two attempted kills last night if Tiruin is telling the truth. Which reminds me...

NQT, you dismissed Persus as the scum's kill target because his activity was too low. Do you think that Tiruin was their target despite her also-low activity or do you think that there was another blocked kill?

Tawa

The fact that the only people you're suspicious of besides NQT just happen to be voting for you doesn't really help either.

This is incorrect. Fallacy is not voting for me. TDS is not voting for me.

Oh yes. You mentioned that Fallacy was 'a little fishy' a while back and left it at that. Why is he fishy? Do you think TDS is scummy or do you still have no read on him? Why haven't you done anything to pursue your FoS on me?

Two different parties seemingly intervened to stop Jack's test, implying that he's allied with somebody. He seems to have an incredible reliance on theories, without making his own situational judgements.

Playstyle is not a valid reason to vote for someone. Consider the possibility that NQT could be town. In that case, would the scumteam have any benefit in blocking an inspection on someone that at least two players wanted lynched before the test?

You seem to have missed this part.

I hereby dismiss my entire theory and will now reform it.

That said, yes, they would. Which is why I said that. But as I said, that's also an endless well of WIFOM. The fact that there was a block and a redirect could also be a frame-up by the scum, intended to make it look like NQT is not scum.

So why have you been acting like the latter is the only valid possibility? Why does two people interfering with Jack imply that NQT is allied with someone?

How did you only read one sentence in my entire last post?

I didn't. I addressed several points you raised in it, your new theory was just strikingly similar to your old one. If you want a play by play, though...

NQT made unnecessary amounts of WIFOM as part of his gambits, which hindered at least two players and led to one player devoting his night action to verifying his claims, which eventually turned out fruitless, in part due to NQT's own actions.

The power that Jack claims to have tried to use on NQT would only have verified one of his claims and seems to have been a fairly weak power in the first place. Unless you think there was a better target for it, why is it so terrible that he used it on NQT? What do you think would have been a reasonable way to perform his gambit if NQT's way was unnecessary?

He kept up the charade for a day before unceremoniously dropping the façade at the start of day 2.

Given his stated reasons for the gambit, why would he have ended it before day 1 ended? Why would he have kept it up during day 2?

He went so far as to pretend to day kill 4maskwolf, which was entirely uncalled for.

Why?

He claims to have been reaction fishing but hasn't really made any scum analysis based on reactions yet.

Yes he has.

Lastly, he was protected by somebody else in addition to himself, which seems like an endless well of WIFOM when I think about why.

Is this meant to be evidence for him being scummy?

[Teneb]

I just noticed I quoted the same thing twice in the Turin section of things, so here is a corrected version:

Seems like someone TRIED TO KEEL MY FACE. Also I can't vote because of that. o_o [Basically I am protected from any-kill-at-all, and then I lose my vote the following day. This also encompasses day kills or stuffs under the term of 'KILL {TIRUIN}']

Really? What's this then?

NQT

And why did this vote register in the votecount?

Back in D1, NQT had no vote and his name did not appear in the votecount. So, Tiruin, why are you lying?

[notquitethere]

NQT, you dismissed Persus as the scum's kill target because his activity was too low. Do you think that Tiruin was their target despite her also-low activity or do you think that there was another blocked kill?

It looks like Tiruin is lying about being a kill target. I'm curious to see what her response is going to be.

[Tawa]

Tawa

The fact that the only people you're suspicious of besides NQT just happen to be voting for you doesn't really help either.

This is incorrect. Fallacy is not voting for me. TDS is not voting for me.

Oh yes. You mentioned that Fallacy was 'a little fishy' a while back and left it at that. Why is he fishy? Do you think TDS is scummy or do you still have no read on him? Why haven't you done anything to pursue your FoS on me?

Fallacy is fishy for the same reasons I am, of course. That said, I'm not too awfully suspicious of him yet. It's just that I don't see it as all too implausible for him to be scum. TDS seems sort of scummy, although I'm still having trouble getting a read. He certainly has logged on recently, though, so I doubt that he's been so quiet due to circumstances beyond his control, and if nobody else seemed scummy enough he could make an OK lynch.

Two different parties seemingly intervened to stop Jack's test, implying that he's allied with somebody. He seems to have an incredible reliance on theories, without making his own situational judgements.

Playstyle is not a valid reason to vote for someone. Consider the possibility that NQT could be town. In that case, would the scumteam have any benefit in blocking an inspection on someone that at least two players wanted lynched before the test?

You seem to have missed this part.

I hereby dismiss my entire theory and will now reform it.

That said, yes, they would. Which is why I said that. But as I said, that's also an endless well of WIFOM. The fact that there was a block and a redirect could also be a frame-up by the scum, intended to make it look like NQT is not scum.

So why have you been acting like the latter is the only valid possibility? Why does two people interfering with Jack imply that NQT is allied with someone?

Will you stop coming back to irrelevant points? I openly consider the former to be a possibility and acknowledge that I was blinded by my own belief that NQT was scum. As for the second one, you literally quoted the answer to your question! The entire thing is just WIFOM.

I didn't. I addressed several points you raised in it, your new theory was just strikingly similar to your old one.

So, not completely abandoning a theory when somebody makes counterpoints is scummy now, is it?

NQT made unnecessary amounts of WIFOM as part of his gambits, which hindered at least two players and led to one player devoting his night action to verifying his claims, which eventually turned out fruitless, in part due to NQT's own actions.

The power that Jack claims to have tried to use on NQT would only have verified one of his claims and seems to have been a fairly weak power in the first place. Unless you think there was a better target for it, why is it so terrible that he used it on NQT? What do you think would have been a reasonable way to perform his gambit if NQT's way was unnecessary?

You've taken this out of context, sir scarecrow salesman. My point is that NQT's gambits eventually wasted a lot of our precious time and resources, and while I acknowledge that he might not have planned for his actions might not have had such an effect, such an "experienced player" should know better than to do something with such a possibility of hindering the town's progress.

He kept up the charade for a day before unceremoniously dropping the façade at the start of day 2.

Given his stated reasons for the gambit, why would he have ended it before day 1 ended? Why would he have kept it up during day 2?

Point conceded.

He went so far as to pretend to day kill 4maskwolf, which was entirely uncalled for.

Why?

Can you please include the part about how unnecessarily over-the-top the gambit was next time?

He claims to have been reaction fishing but hasn't really made any scum analysis based on reactions yet.

Yes he has.

If memory serves, his entire analysis[/rul] was that the people who didn't respond were scum. Except two of them were lurkers, one said she'd get back to it later, and most of his reason was based on [url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152454.msg6465770#msg6465770](purportedly out-of-context) statistics from a different game. That's about as weak as wet newspaper.

Lastly, he was protected by somebody else in addition to himself, which seems like an endless well of WIFOM when I think about why.

Is this meant to be evidence for him being scummy?

It's not evidence itself. I was indicating the fact.

It looks like Tiruin is lying about being a kill target.

Why do you say this?
Deus, you're coming across like you're defending NQT. Any particular reason why?

[notquitethere]

If memory serves, his entire analysis[/rul] was that the people who didn't respond were scum. Except two of them were lurkers, one said she'd get back to it later, and most of his reason was based on [url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152454.msg6465770#msg6465770](purportedly out-of-context) statistics from a different game. That's about as weak as wet newspaper.

Whether you agree with the analysis or not is an entirely separate question to whether it actually took place. I made use of players reactions to my D1 antics to form a large part of my D2 suspicions. That had been one of my intentions and that is what I did. Not being completely optimal or effective as town doesn't make someone scum. Being disengaged from the game is a much stronger sign. I'm not sure why you're still voting me when there are much better targets.

What do you think of TheDarkStar's play?

[FallacyofUrist]

And the debate kicks into high gear.

And I'm throwing in my own attack: NQT:

Who are your top three suspects(for scum)?
If you knew there was a survivor in game, which player do you think it would most likely be(include yourself in analysis)?
And why did you throw the Gambit Grenade when a more conventional scum hunt would have worked just as well and confused town much less?
And above all: Throwback to D1: honestly, how can we trust anyone throwing Gambit Grenades around in a tangled mess is town? Or why are you town?
Why did you scum hunt as you have done?
Why?
Why do you confuse us?
Why are you not scum?


Broken record sure. It's true. You are my first suspect, and the others are secondary. But honestly, I feel my suspicion of you is merited. Why? It ought to be obvious from the very moment I started attacking you: You are a magician of confusion who could have done much better things for the town. You spin webs of WIFOM instead of scum hunting with a bazooka. When you do scum hunt, it is weak and comes second to defending yourself(in my opinion.
Why? Why all this, NQT?

[notquitethere]

And I'm throwing in my own attack: NQT:

I really don't know why you're still voting me. Look at half the other players, please.

Who are your top three suspects(for scum)?

Tiruin-TDS-Teneb, like I already explained. I'm probably wrong about at least one of them though.

If you knew there was a survivor in game, which player do you think it would most likely be(include yourself in analysis)?

I really don't know. Lack of engagement that scum often show is also seen in 3rd parties, so maybe someone like Tiruin.

And why did you throw the Gambit Grenade when a more conventional scum hunt would have worked just as well and confused town much less?

Just as well? No, regular scum hunting is shit. Bay12 has a terrible record of letting scum stroll unhindered to a win. Scum play on easy mode. I think our plurality lynch system encourages poor town play. This is why I feel that in every game I should be trying new things, experimenting, shaking things up. I don't always get it right, but I feel like I'm expanding the borders of acceptable play.

And above all: Throwback to D1: honestly, how can we trust anyone throwing Gambit Grenades around in a tangled mess is town? Or why are you town?

When you've played a few more games you'll hopefully realise that scum play conservatively. They don't like drawing attention to themselves and they hate taking risks. They can coast along to an easy win by not making waves. Most of the time town players are best lynching the players that are most in the background.

Why did you scum hunt as you have done?
Why?

In every game I play I do something different. This was what I'm trialling this time.

Why do you confuse us?

My intention isn't to confuse. And now I'm explaining things today, there should be no outstanding confusion. Are you still unclear on any points?

Why are you not scum?

Because my role PM says I'm town. Really, scum don't play this way.

Broken record sure. It's true. You are my first suspect, and the others are secondary. But honestly, I feel my suspicion of you is merited. Why? It ought to be obvious from the very moment I started attacking you: You are a magician of confusion who could have done much better things for the town. You spin webs of WIFOM instead of scum hunting with a bazooka. When you do scum hunt, it is weak and comes second to defending yourself(in my opinion.
Why? Why all this, NQT?

How is my current scum hunting weak? I've outlined a list of targets I think are scummy for two separate reasons (yesterdays votes on 4mask and their reactions yesterday). My scum hunting is the most grounded in the facts of the matter. I've seen nobody else mention anyone else votes in any way which is odd because these are the most important pieces of evidence in the game. If I've spent a lot of time defending myself it's because other people have wasted a lot of time attacking me and I try not to ignore questions posed to me.

What do you think of Tiruin, Teneb and TDS?

[Tawa]

I'm not sure why you're still voting me when there are much better targets.

I really don't know why you're still voting me. Look at half the other players, please.

Really professional of you.

What do you think of TheDarkStar's play?

Pretty crappy. Right under you in my terms of lynch candidates.
NQT: What do you think of Deus?

[FallacyofUrist]

Really, scum don't play this way.
~~~
What do you think of Tiruin, Teneb and TDS?

"Really, scum don't play this way". That be how you defend yourself? The best way for a mafioso to play the game successfully is to act town. Scum aren't supposed to act like you're acting. But for scum to win, they have to act like that. What say you?

Tiruin: My gut tinges on her. Maybe it's something in the way she posts... slightly scummy in my opinion(curse my lack of experience, if I had more this would be a more solid read).
Teneb: Not really enough posts to analyze. Hopefully the day will bring more posts from him.
TDS: And the same. Less, in fact.

How is your current hunting weak? Traps. Instead of launching attacks you seem to spin a web and wait for someone to stick in it(passive!, probably not too scummy). It's weak in my opinion, but it very well may be effective. We'll see what happens at the lynch.
~~~
Oh I think I missed someone.

Nope, just missed my response.
~~~
I think your scum picks may need to be revised.
~~~

It's annoying in Mafia that games can hinge on the lack of activity. Hopefully Tiruin and Teneb will get back here soon.

Unvote NQT. (I think I was voting you). You've made your points clear. And honestly, at this point you seem like a survivor to me. I can explain my reasoning if you like.
Anyway, if you're a survivor, as I suspect, you're worth keeping alive. For the moment. Your trap method seems to be beginning to yield results. Let's see what happens.
~~~
I'm going to go ahead and explain my reasoning anyway, for the benefit of anyone reading.

1. Self preservation. You are very concerned with keeping yourself alive, and your fake-claims in day one made you an undesirable lynch target for scum(or town who want to remain alive) and made you unwanted to target during the night(or so you tried to do).
2. It still looks like you're trying to divert suspicion away from yourself.
3. Though 2 could be a scumtell, it's pretty much crushed by the way you laid your traps and started hunting using them. It's not my preferred method, but it very well could bring results.