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[Dermonster]

You really needed to be hit with the 'PLAYERS ARE MORONS AND HAVE THE ATTENTION SPAN OF A CAT' bat a few times.

Hints don't do anything! Unless we have  one of those guys who goes deep on call we need to have the basic answers waved straight in front of us. Neon lights! Floating arrow signs! Half the time we would have still missed it.

[birdy51]

Indeed. Sometimes I'm lucky enough if I can find my way home at night, let acknowledge the fact that someone is repeatedly making references to the sun. ;.;

That said, kudos on the Dark Night of the Soul reference. I probably should have caught that one, having sang a piece with it's words before. I might not have been following too hard at that point however, given that my own knowledge of Elder Scrolls is rather limited.

[Sparksol]

This is just about the point where things started to get unusual/interesting, from my viewpoint. (Ouch, two weeks. Sorry about that.) It invoked some similar sentiments from meeting Vivec in playing Morrowind, as well as reading the various books around the island. The point where Vivec mentioned that he wasn't holding up that big floating rock, that - I feel - should have been more of a clue, but in truth even I was of two minds about what it meant. And I only confused myself on that item more later on.

[Man of Paper]

Dang man. I gotta reread through things and see where my head was at during suggestions/discussions. I remember having a lot of fun with this though.

Also, anyone ever notice this?

Marooned in Morrowind ---> MiM ---> Morrowind is Magic

Dunno if that was ever stated or if it was intentional (though it seems most things were, kudos), but I thought I'd just leave that there.

Do more stuff like this in the future. I like contemplation.

[LordBucket]

Marooned in Morrowind ---> MiM ---> Morrowind is Magic

I actually hadn't noticed that. But, as mentioned when this MST3K started, this game turned up a lot of Jungian synchronicities. Which, again...is to be expected, given the premise. For example, I remember being pretty surprised when I noticed that the Imperial legion armor depicts silver and gold horses facing each other. That whole thing about Wingless Twilight's being the servants of Azura/Celestia, I think I first noticed that when I was looking up Azura on UESP for some reason. I don't remember when that was, exactly, but I think not until the game was established. In fact, when I started I hadn't exactly even thought out the Celestia/Azura connection very much. It was more of an intuitive 'aha!' I am of course, not the only person to have made that connection, and if you'll recall, at the beginning on MLP, Celestia was handling the job of raising both the sun and the moon just like Azura is shown to be handling them both at her shrine. There were definitely some surprises, even for me. For example, if you'll forgive a bit of a tangent...

Celestia and Luna are obviously a classical sun/moon divinity pair, just like is ubiquitous in mythologies worldwide. It can be debated whether Faust intended it, but it's incredibly obvious to anyone who's paying attention. I've occasionally wondered whether it was a case of Tvtropes: Getting Crap Past the Radar, and feminist Faust was deliberately slipping female goddess emperors past the censors, or whether she genuinely had no idea what she was doing.

But, I mean...seriously, when you introduce your characters by sticking them on top of a religious symbol:



...and then associate those characters with the same things traditionally associated with that same symbol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

"...yin and yang combine the same "hill" radical 阝 with the non-phonetic yue 月 "moon" and ri 日 "sun", graphically denoting "shady side of a hill" and "sunny side of a hill". Compare the Classical Chinese names (which contain tai 太 "great") for these two heavenly bodies: Taiyin 太陰 "moon" and Taiyang 太陽 "sun"."

...and when you then name one of those characters after the goddess associated with the exact same thing you're associating your character with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_(goddess)

"Luna is the divine embodiment of the Moon"

(Remember that Luna was the mare....in the moon, not "on" the moon.)

...and name the other character after a word that means:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/celestial

"pertaining to the spiritual or invisible heaven; heavenly; divine:

...and you then have other characters in that universe engage in referential humor depicting those characters in the role of god, as for example, as shown by the infamous Rarity 'As Celestia is my witness scene, and duplicated here by Fluttershy. Which for those who don't get the reference, this is straight of the bible:

Romans 1-9
"For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;"

Corinthians 1-23
"I call God as my witness--and I stake my life on it"

Thessalonians 2-5
"God is our witness"

Or, as others might more easily recognize from the Scarlet o'Hara 'God is my witness' scene from Gone with the Wind.

There's so much of this stuff going on in first season MLP before Faust was booted from the show and her replacement started retconning it, I kind of have a hard time believing that nobody knew what was going on and that it was all just a coincidence.

Anyway, point of that tangent being that Celestia is clearly a sun goddess. But Azura is the daedra of the "dusk and the dawn," not just the dawn. When I first started out, I hadn't quite reconciled how that matched. But then I realized that yes, their spheres are actually the same: Celestia raises the sun, but she also lowers it. Dusk and dawn are both her time, just like Azura.

At one point I remember going and checking UESP to find out which daedra was Luna. Because at that point my thinking was "well, obviously there's going to be one." And sure enough, she's Nocturnal:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nocturnal

"Nocturnal, who is also known as the Night Mistress, the Mistress of Shadows, The Unknowable,Empress of Murk, Daughter of Twilight"

Ok, so there's Luna. But...wait a second "Daughter of Twilight?" Twilight Sparkle? What's that about?

: " What about Nocturnal, or shall I say Nyx, who you ironically haven't even met? Mary Sue like her can't stand the competition, I suppose. Or maybe the incestuous implications if she were to appear.

Self-involvedicus Maximus? He's foreign, too. And much more of an influence. In fact, in about twenty minutes he's going to be the unknowing instrument for the biggest change this world has seen since Selene decided it wouldn't be entirely terrible if she wasn't the only one playing with herself."

Nocturnal is known in Tamriel as a Daedric Prince known as the Night Mistress, Mistress of Shadows, and other things; much the same way Sheogorath is the Daedric Prince of Madness (and occasionally cheese, for some reason.) I'm not sure who Nyx is in this case, but I've heard the name in connection to the night in other cultures. This is likely another multi-entity not unlike Sheogorath or Vivec. But since Sheoggy mentioned "Mary Sue" I'm put in mind of SexyWithers. I know the consensus (such as there is) has it that she's Luna - which kind of fits, she's the main night-themed figure for the ponies, with some sway over dreams as well

Nocturnal and Nyx, both linked to darkness, but somewhat different all the same.

I recall Nyx being the name of a character from a really famous mlpfim fan fiction I never read. I don't know much about it, but I think I've inferred that it might involve twilight raising a tiny baby demon? Anyway, I think I also heard about Nyx being a boring maybe Mary Sue character though I don't know for sure again.

...yes, actually. That story would be Past Sins, one of the more famous stories in the fandom. In which Twilight Sparkle's blood is used in a spell to reincarnate Nightmare Moon (Luna) into a new body and then she raises her as her daughter.

I was of course familiar with Past Sins. I read it back when it was new. But seeing for the first time on UESP that line about Nocturnal being the 'Daughter of Twilight,' that was a bit of a jolt. Sychronicities like this happened pretty regularly.

Anyway, Sheogorath's comment about incest was making a pun. In Equestria-universe, originally Luna was the only one playing the game/spell. She was therefore "playing with herself." But like every other tomato, Nyx/Nocturnal are basically the same entity as seen from different universes. As clearly implied by Sheogorath:

: "Nocturnal, or shall I say Nyx

In Equestria-universe, Luna and Nightmare Moon are (more or less) the same pony. (It's debatable. Some theories suggest that Nightmare Moon was simply Luna having a bad day. Other theories suggest that 'the Nightmare' was an external entity that fused with Luna to become a singular entity, Nightmare Moon. Obviously, of course, given infinite universes, there are universes where either interpretation is correct.)

In omniverse, Celestia and Azura are components of the same hyperentity. In omniverse, Luna and Nocturnal are the same entity. But, in Equestria-universe, Nyx is a pony. And Nyx (Twilight's daughter) is the reincarnation of Nightmare Moon...who is (kind of) Luna.

So what would happen if Nyx (in Equestria) started playing the game?

Luna and Nyx would be "playing with each other."

https://www.google.com/#q=defintion+incest

"sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other."

: "Pretty sure your own reincarnation could be considered 'closely related.'"

: "I'll have you know that a ziploc bag full of gouda shavings enjoyed that pun a grate deal. "



There was some other stuff I was going to comment, but it's almost 4am here.

: "I'd like to ask: why didn't you guys ever establish a base? That's something every player of Morrowind, pretty much ever, always does. They pick a place to put the extra loot they don't want to carry. And you had extra incentive to do it here, because alchemy tools turned out to be too big to carry. You had plenty of opportunity. Why did you guys never pick a place and call it home?"

[IronyOwl]

Definitely wondered about... well, most of Sheo's lines, really, but certainly the Nocturnal/Nyx thing. I think I assumed he was referring to Luna, but couldn't do much with the information. Partially because I didn't look enough of it up or think about most of it in depth, ie wondering who Selene was. I think I just assumed she was some primordial ES goddess and stopped worrying about it.


As for the base thing... it never really crossed my mind, actually. Aside from the alchemy gear, which I seem to recall stashing in the Mages Guild (or was that finding Withers'?), we never really had a lot of use for storage space. I mean, sure, we had all that crap stuffed under Caius' bed, but that was standard "I'm sure we'll come back for it eventually" packrat debris; if we really wanted or needed it, we wouldn't have ignored it so long it got sold.

Aside from storage space, we also weren't really doing well enough for most of the game to worry about making a nice house or whatever. If we'd been a successful adventurer or something getting our own mansion would have been cool, if we'd needed to keep prisoners taking over a dungeon would have been nice, if we needed a place for our blasphemous research into necromancy there's tombs everywhere... but we were just kind of a headless chicken with headless chicken stats and headless chicken finances, so "hey let's clear out a cave and live there" never really occurred to me as a useful or cool goal.

[Sparksol]

Aside from storage space, we also weren't really doing well enough for most of the game to worry about making a nice house or whatever.

I figure this sums it up nicely.

As to Azura roughly equating to Celestia, this was one point where my not-quite-correct vague rememberings were working against me. (Well, that and my lack of looking certain things up at the time. I had it in mind that Meridia was the Daedra most closely associated with the sun and light (which was not quite correct,) and Nocturnal being darkness (and this latter point was correct enough. I knew nothing of Nyx relating to MLP stuff at that time, as I'd mentioned back when I showed up to this game. Also, there's the Aedra, Magnus, who basically made Nirn's sun when he left the mortal realms, but that guy never shows up in person.)

Of course, Meridia doesn't make an appearance in Morrowind, but I didn't consider that at the time....

Anyway, I wasn't 100% sure what Azura's deal was going to be.

(Also, while I was looking up my initial post on this game, I noticed something.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Welcome to the game, Spark Sol. You have some interesting ideas.

...you sneaky so-and-so, you.

[Arcvasti]

Yeah, I always associated Azura with the moon and the stars rather then the sun. And a lot of the weird sun stuff, especially while Micheal was dead, I attributed to the fact that the sun in the Elder Scrolls verse is literally a hole torn in the fabric of reality when Magnus exited that magicka leaks through.

Aside from storage space, we also weren't really doing well enough for most of the game to worry about making a nice house or whatever.

I figure this sums it up nicely.

Plus we had neither Mark nor Recall, which are both pretty important for establishing a decent base.

[LordBucket]

wondering who Selene was. I think I just assumed she was some primordial ES goddess and stopped worrying about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selene

"In Greek mythology, Selene is the goddess of the moon. Selene was regarded as the personification of the moon itself. Her Roman equivalent is Luna"

http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Luna

"Luna/Nightmare Moon is called by her respective early names Princess Selena"

Definitely wondered about... well, most of Sheo's lines, really

Quite a lot of what he said was meaningful. Even a fair portion of his crazy talk. He was trying hard to help you.

For example, while this wasn't exactly the most informative of his statements, it was definitely the one I had the most fun writing:

: "But, that's four for four! Forty more than a missing Earl, and seven less than most faithful's CMFIS. One more and you win! You can do it! Go! Go! Go!"

Gibberish, right? Crazy talk?

four for four

444

Forty more than a missing Earl

Ok, so: "444 is 40 more than a mising Earl."

Well, what number is 444 forty more than?

444 - 40 = 404

"404?" You know immediately what that is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_404

"Missing URL, page not found."

Read "URL" out loud as a single syllable.

"(444 - 40) Missing Earl" = "404, missing URL"

At that point, you should have realized that something was going on here. (Actually I'd expected you to have figured out in the prior  episode to pay very close attention to everything he said.)

and seven less than

Ok. 444-40 got us somewhere. What number is 444 seven less than?

444 + 7 = 451

Some of you might immediately recognize the significance of that number. For those who don't:

https://www.google.com/#q=451

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

"The novel presents a future American society where books are outlawed and "firemen" burn any that are found."

"The title refers to the temperature that Bradbury asserted to be the autoignition point of paper"

Or less formally, 451 degrees fareinheit is supposed to be the temperature at which books catch fire and burn

Goodness! Burning books? That's not very nice. Who do we know who might be especially concerned about that?

most faithful's

Who is "most faithful?"

http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Twilight_Sparkle

"Princess Celestia's most faithful student"

That "most faithful student" expression, incidentally, is narrated either by Celestia or Spike in every single episode that Twilight receives a letter.

CMFIS

https://www.google.com/#q=cmfis

"Cutie Mark Failure Insanity Syndrome"

Basically, it's the sanity-slippage freakout that happens when ponies fail to live up to their identity. It's a fan theory, granted. But being in all caps, it was clearly an acronym. Even if nobody recognized it, it's amazing to me that nobody thought to google it. Actually, quite a few mysteries would have been quickly solved if  somebody had simply googled them. Clover the Clever, withers, CMFIS, Selene, Sheogorath's final piece of advice to you, etc. Sadly, there were actually a couple of Sheogorath's comments that a few individuals among you definitely understood, but some of those people chose to post subtle "I get the joke" comments similarly encoded rather than share with everyone what was going on. If instead they'd explained, that might have prompted others among you to look more closely and discover the still hidden gems.

Anyway:

"that's four for four! Forty more than a missing Earl, and seven less than most faithful's CMFIS."

Translation:

"That's 444, which is 40 more than 404, which is the web missing URL error message number, and 444 is also 7 less than 451, which is the temperature that results in Twilight Sparkle freaking out because books are burning."

[Sparksol]

For example, while this wasn't exactly the most informative of his statements, it was definitely the one I had the most fun writing:

"that's four for four! Forty more than a missing Earl, and seven less than most faithful's CMFIS."

Translation:
"That's 444, which is 40 more than 404, which is the web missing URL error message number, and 444 is also 7 less than 451, which is the temperature that results in Twilight Sparkle freaking out because books are burning."

Okay, I completely overlooked that set of hints, along with probably plenty of others. (Though I'm not certain how much of a hint the 404 part actually was.) I blame my lack of stopping to look up every thing I didn't get. (Just every other thing.)

[IronyOwl]

Looking back, I had forgotten how fun Sheo's lines were to read. I feel like you captured that manic scatterbrained "a lot of this stuff probably makes sense if you understand more than you do" vibe very well.

[gordy]

I never read into Sheos fourth wall breaking because you expect that's what he'll do. It would have had more impact coming from someone particularly straight.

[Sparksol]

Wait a sec.

For example, while this wasn't exactly the most informative of his statements, it was definitely the one I had the most fun writing:

"that's four for four! Forty more than a missing Earl, and seven less than most faithful's CMFIS."

Translation:
"That's 444, which is 40 more than 404, which is the web missing URL error message number, and 444 is also 7 less than 451, which is the temperature that results in Twilight Sparkle freaking out because books are burning."

This wasn't some kind of nested clue, was it? If it turns out this line was supposed to lead us to find a missing page from a burned book or something, you're due for such a pinch.

[Sparksol]

Just a quick check-in...been about a month since we were last updated, was this pretty much the last of the information?

December 9th edit: I'm going to take that as a yes.