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Author Topic: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!  (Read 2082 times)

bsnott

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Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« on: July 31, 2015, 05:02:25 pm »

If you'd like to help with the project (right now I'm just lobbying support) then go ahead and add me on Steam.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198011729958/

or just go ahead and message me on the Bay 12 Forum!



So I've been in the game making industry before, and trust me, I understand fully well how double edged ambition can be in games. I fully understand that this project would be insanely hard to do, and that I probably don't understand how difficult it'd be to code based on the fact that I'm just a 3D modeler, but I have an idea.

Something occurred to me while playing Black and White 2. The game really has nothing to do with the concept of B&W2, but it just reminded me of it. I want to make a game that models ALL aspects of a city building/RTS game, in first person. That sounds pretty stupid at first, but I actually think I have some ideas that might make it work. I am not going for an extremely complex thing here. It needs to be sandbox, but we don't need to make a crap ton of really complex mechanics and assets for a demo release.




Basically this game will be centered around a number of different factions on a map. There must be a map editor for replayability. They will, at the beginning of the game, be made up of however many cities the map creator puts down for each faction. They will have different economic buildings within them, and farms outside. For the demo, all cities will have the same kinds of resources, just different amounts of them generated nearby the city, based on the map. Trade routes will be drawn during map creation, so that it isn't left to the AI. The AI traders will handle what goes on the trade routes based off of supply and demand. The player can start as any of the classes, and when he does the gameplay revolves around that player, which should be possible as it's going to be a singleplayer game. As a peasant, in the initial release, your basic objective will be to grind to support yourself (and in later versions, your family) and hopefully earn enough money to buy yourself some land. As a labourer you'll do the same thing, but you'll have more options in terms of work and possibly this class will include assassins, criminals, and the like. As a landowner your job will be to further your economic status, and also try to get yourself into a position of political power. Politics will be expanded on in future versions, but in the initial release it'll probably be as simple as getting people to like you, and killing off, bankrupting, or outright winning against your political opponents. As a mayor it'll be a city builder, as a king it'll be something like EU4, but at least in the initial stage, extremely less complex. The entire game world will be navigable in first person mode, but the player will be able to speed up time while their armies march or while they await opportunities to expand their domain. The point of the game is to be a world that you can walk through and do what you want to do. If you want to be a peasant and quit your job on day one to explore the world and try to make enough money to sustain yourself, go ahead. If you want to rise through the political ranks and become a mayor, and maybe even a king, go ahead. If you want to be a trader and earn yourself an empire of gold, go ahead. If you want to be a king right off the bat and go down as the greatest conqueror that ever lived, that's what you can attempt to do. Beware, this game will not be too easy. Your political opponents will fight back, assassins will come after you as a king, enemy armies will fight back and if you get out of hand, you might find yourself the target of a coalition. If you are a lone adventurer, you'd best hope that you are decent at fighting because there are wolves and bandits out in the wild. If you're a peasant, I'd hope that your employer is generous enough to pay what you need. If not, crime will always be an option. It's a world made entirely for you, but you don't rule it. At least, you don't rule it yet.




What I'm gunning for for a first release:


first person character

can be any of these classes, and can move up and down the ranks:
  • peasant (works raw material buildings [farmer, lumberjack, miner for first release])
  • laborer (works conversion buildings [grain mill, bakery, sawmill, smelter, blacksmith, inn worker for first release])
  • landowner (anyone who owns buildings, mayors and kings can also be landowners but will retain higher title, maintain stores and stock, face competition, run inns, farms, sawmills, mines, bakeries, etc., gain income from ownership, can ask mayor to build certain buildings)
  • mayor (runs like a city building game when you enter Mayor Mode, place building sites and set prices for landowners or aspiring landowners to buy and run businesses on based on demand of your town)
  • king (diplomatic, grand strategy type mode when player enters King Mode at any time, can also enter mayor mode for cities when inside mayor's office of city, declare war, set heir upon death, gives armies commands in King mode, can set generals or can lead armies personally in Tactical Mode, declares war, alliances, trade embargoes, etc., has steel armor and steel sword)

Can be any of the following upon start, or can join military at level depending on social class, can move up depending on number of kills:
  • recruit (combat skill: 1, thrown into group of infantry, archers or cavalry, group size: 10 men)
  • regular (combat skill: 2)
  • sergeant (combat skill: 3, 9 men follow him in group, given iron armor)
  • commander (combat skill: 4, three commanders in an army, commands groups split evenly between commanders. If there isn't enough groups for all three commanders, then commanders without groups are given their own groups of recruits, given steel armor and sword)
  • general (combat skill: 5, commands commanders in tactical mode, determines army marching path if player, AI marching paths determined by map creator and chosen by time difference and eventually climate, given steel armor and sword)

map editor with path creation

ability to move up in class, and down by being fired, mayors elected by landowners, kings are appointed heirs by previous king

randomly generate characters in landowner, mayor, king, sergeants, commanders, and generals

in first release have materials: gold, wheat, flour, bread, log, plank, beer, iron, steel, iron bar, steel bar, iron sword, steel sword, iron armor, steel armor

armies take up food, beer, (in future release arrows, produced at bowyer by laborer), (in future release horses, which will be a raw material that is harvested at a stable), and gold in upkeep.

hunger, thirst, and sleep system

ability to speed up/slow down time exponentially (essential for when army is on the march or just waiting for something to happen)

in the first release military will be simple: the only engagements will be battles and sieges. Sieges will simply block off a town's access to it's farms and trade routes and once the garrison begins taking losses due to starvation they will either surrender or sally forth. They will also sally forth if their army is close in ability to the opposing army. Battles will be essentially both sides just duking it out until one side takes a certain percentage amount of casualties to make them rout.

have a relation system: -200 relation to 200 relation with any actual characters (peasants, laborers, recruits, and regulars are not considered actual characters and thus have no in game name other than their position)

model politics (possibly include assassinations, duels, and other kinds of political cutthroat activity in initial release)

possibly include banditry along trade routs depending on amount of faction patrols in the area (patrols possibly in first release)

have a living, breathing game world for the player to be what they want to be
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 06:30:37 pm by bsnott »
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bsnott

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2015, 06:15:25 pm »

Basically I'm going to need a lot of coders. To keep the framerate reasonable at least for the initial release we'll use low-poly placeholder assets (i'll make em)

I'll also try to learn to code. Anyone have any suggestions as to the best coding language to make this type of game in?
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~Neri

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2015, 06:18:29 pm »

For an initial build, you're gonna wanna cut about 90% of this. If not 99%.

The very first thing you wanna do is make an engine, I can't think of any preexisting game engines that can do this. Therefore you will need to make one from scratch. These are all nice ideas and all, but first things first. Gotta get the basics done.
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bsnott

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2015, 06:32:21 pm »

For an initial build, you're gonna wanna cut about 90% of this. If not 99%.

The very first thing you wanna do is make an engine, I can't think of any preexisting game engines that can do this. Therefore you will need to make one from scratch. These are all nice ideas and all, but first things first. Gotta get the basics done.
I mean a release, not a build. It'll definitely be a while before it's in a playable state, but I'd like to have it in a simple, playable state in a decent amount of time so it's not another ambitious project that doesn't make it to a first release.

Before anything happens, I need coders.
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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2015, 06:35:57 pm »

Version 1.0 release won't likely happen for years with this list of stuff. Even with a lot of coders. First thing needed is a basic engine. Second thing needed is what you want in the first alpha.
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bsnott

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2015, 06:46:39 pm »

Version 1.0 release won't likely happen for years with this list of stuff. Even with a lot of coders. First thing needed is a basic engine. Second thing needed is what you want in the first alpha.
I tried my best to dumb it down but I guess it's just not a great idea.
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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2015, 06:49:05 pm »

That isn't what I said in the slightest.

A good game. Takes years to make.

It's not gonna get done in a week. As an example, Dwarf Fortress, which has absolutely no art assets. Has been in production for many many many years and still isn't past beta 0.40

You need to take this in a step by step basis. Manage time, manage goals. What do you want done First. What needs doing for that stuff to get done before anything else?
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Nirur Torir

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 06:59:46 pm »

The very first thing you wanna do is make an engine, I can't think of any preexisting game engines that can do this. Therefore you will need to make one from scratch. These are all nice ideas and all, but first things first. Gotta get the basics done.
I'm not very knowledgeable about game engines, but I'm curious about why Unity or Unreal Engine flat-out wouldn't work for this.

From my (limited) understanding, if you make a 3D city builder with an AI mayor (built with FPS mode in mind), it wouldn't take much more to allow a player to walk around in first person, or to swap between FPS mode and mayor mode.
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~Neri

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2015, 07:06:06 pm »

Unity is nice but it doesn't handle massive amounts of variables well. Which is why you rarely see RTS games or Strategy games of any sort built on it.

Unreal Engine is closer and comes with a few neat features, but it isn't quite what would be needed for something with the listed feature wants in the OP.
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Araph

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2015, 11:22:15 pm »

Use Unity. If the project somehow gets to a point that Unity can't handle even with abstracting the simulation (which, if that somehow happens, is probably because the programmers messed up somewhere rather than an actual engine limitation), THEN move to a new engine.

As for a custom engine, there's no point when the project is at this stage. It would be a huge investment of time and energy for a project that could die out at any moment, it relies on multiple hobbyists somehow keeping the same codebase clean, logical, and organized, and odds are it would be more inefficient (especially at the beginning) than Unity.

Version 1.0 release won't likely happen for years with this list of stuff. Even with a lot of coders. First thing needed is a basic engine. Second thing needed is what you want in the first alpha.
I tried my best to dumb it down but I guess it's just not a great idea.

It's not that it's not a good idea, it's that it's a huge idea.

I recommend looking up some C# tutorials and tinkering around with Unity. Make a few very small projects to get a handle on the basics and then start testing things from your list of game elements out. Try to puzzle out how map creation would work (and it is entirely possible to make dynamic, user-created maps in Unity; it's just quite a big project on its own), figure out how you'd handle NPCs. Then go back and review the whole list and try to boil it down to be as simple as possible and build it back up with the understanding you've gained from your practice projects.

Don't feel like it's an impossible project, because that's a good way to convince yourself to not try. Just start doing things and learn from your mistakes. When something doesn't work and cripples the game, it's still not a loss. The next project you work on won't suffer the same fate. It's just a matter of learning, adapting, and trying again.

Which is why you rarely see RTS games or Strategy games of any sort built on it.

I would argue it's because developers haven't made many massive RTS games recently. Unity would have no problems handling it that other engines wouldn't suffer as well, as long as the programmers are smart with how they handle things.
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bsnott

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2015, 11:56:20 pm »

Use Unity. If the project somehow gets to a point that Unity can't handle even with abstracting the simulation (which, if that somehow happens, is probably because the programmers messed up somewhere rather than an actual engine limitation), THEN move to a new engine.

As for a custom engine, there's no point when the project is at this stage. It would be a huge investment of time and energy for a project that could die out at any moment, it relies on multiple hobbyists somehow keeping the same codebase clean, logical, and organized, and odds are it would be more inefficient (especially at the beginning) than Unity.

Version 1.0 release won't likely happen for years with this list of stuff. Even with a lot of coders. First thing needed is a basic engine. Second thing needed is what you want in the first alpha.
I tried my best to dumb it down but I guess it's just not a great idea.

It's not that it's not a good idea, it's that it's a huge idea.

I recommend looking up some C# tutorials and tinkering around with Unity. Make a few very small projects to get a handle on the basics and then start testing things from your list of game elements out. Try to puzzle out how map creation would work (and it is entirely possible to make dynamic, user-created maps in Unity; it's just quite a big project on its own), figure out how you'd handle NPCs. Then go back and review the whole list and try to boil it down to be as simple as possible and build it back up with the understanding you've gained from your practice projects.

Don't feel like it's an impossible project, because that's a good way to convince yourself to not try. Just start doing things and learn from your mistakes. When something doesn't work and cripples the game, it's still not a loss. The next project you work on won't suffer the same fate. It's just a matter of learning, adapting, and trying again.

Which is why you rarely see RTS games or Strategy games of any sort built on it.

I would argue it's because developers haven't made many massive RTS games recently. Unity would have no problems handling it that other engines wouldn't suffer as well, as long as the programmers are smart with how they handle things.
Well that gave me a little bit of confidence in the project at least. I'll try to get a grip on C# with my free time. Mostly what I would like is to find some other game developers to do some small projects with for fun, as the only game development teams I've ever been on were indie dev teams with awful leaders (either too ambitious, too malicious, or did illegal things) and modding teams for the game Mount and Blade: Warband (was much more enjoyable, but the game engine had its limits. Any suggestions as to where I might find a community that might wanna do some simple projects together?
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Araph

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2015, 01:16:27 am »

Well that gave me a little bit of confidence in the project at least. I'll try to get a grip on C# with my free time. Mostly what I would like is to find some other game developers to do some small projects with for fun, as the only game development teams I've ever been on were indie dev teams with awful leaders (either too ambitious, too malicious, or did illegal things) and modding teams for the game Mount and Blade: Warband (was much more enjoyable, but the game engine had its limits. Any suggestions as to where I might find a community that might wanna do some simple projects together?

I'd be willing to help with small projects (though my definition of a small project might be smaller than yours).
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bsnott

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2015, 01:22:35 am »

Okay :) Is there anything I can add you on to make messaging a bit easier?
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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2015, 12:20:41 pm »

Honestly, I go on Bay12 more often than pretty much any other social site. Forum messages are probably the most reliable way to contact me.

Just a suggestion, but you might want to brainstorm a couple of ideas for small projects before asking around for other developers to join in, too. You're more likely to get a positive response if your goal is more clearly laid out.
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zombie urist

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Re: Game Concept - Will need all kinds of developers!
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2015, 02:39:19 pm »

either too ambitious
Sorry but the game you described is definitely too ambitious, considering that you admit you have little programming experience. Even with a decent size team working full time it will take at least a year to complete.
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