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[SixOfSpades]

Also... pointing out that brewing certain plants (dwarven RUM) pressuposses distilliation is really missing the point.  This is still alpha DF, and those systems (along with farming) are extremely over simplified and half-assed.

The half-assedness of DF potables notwithstanding, it still makes a lot more sense to say "Dwarves regularly produce distilled liquors at a workshop called a Still, so it's safe to assume they know all about distilling booze" than it does to say "We haven't been specifically told that dwarves have laboratory-quality alembics & retorts, so either they use some kind of dwarven magic, or the fact that they can distill whiskey is probably an oversight."

[Niddhoger]

You realize that only three of the 80 products of the "still" (dwarven rum, swamp whiskey, and river spirits) actually require distilliation? Everything else is a beer, wine, or cider (fruit beer, really).  3 out of 80... I'm saying that the "half-assed" system isn't magic so much as Toady just slinging things together and moving to the next workshop.  Particularly in a game like this with only one developer working over years, a layer of polish tends to be severely lacking.  Thus, the dwarven still that makes virtually no "distilled" beverages has been in the game for ages.  Now that we are actually touching onto the topic of research and chemistry... is distillation going to be apart of this? Does the still need a layer of polish to reflect this? Or are the "chemistry" secrets going to presuppose distillation and specialized lab equipment for it.  At this point, its mostly just... meh, maybe? We are basically just waiting for Toady to push it out and/or add that coat of "polish" that would make these two more in line.  Personally I'd just be happy with adding more distilled beverages to the still.  No brandy? No vodkas? Only one whiskey? Gin? As there is neither corn nor agavae, I guess bourbon and tequila are out (lest he add a fictional version/just add those in, agave is a desert/tropical plant afterall).

[vjmdhzgr]

You realize that only three of the 80 products of the "still" (dwarven rum, swamp whiskey, and river spirits) actually require distilliation? Everything else is a beer, wine, or cider (fruit beer, really).  3 out of 80... I'm saying that the "half-assed" system isn't magic so much as Toady just slinging things together and moving to the next workshop.  Particularly in a game like this with only one developer working over years, a layer of polish tends to be severely lacking.  Thus, the dwarven still that makes virtually no "distilled" beverages has been in the game for ages.  Now that we are actually touching onto the topic of research and chemistry... is distillation going to be apart of this? Does the still need a layer of polish to reflect this? Or are the "chemistry" secrets going to presuppose distillation and specialized lab equipment for it.  At this point, its mostly just... meh, maybe? We are basically just waiting for Toady to push it out and/or add that coat of "polish" that would make these two more in line.  Personally I'd just be happy with adding more distilled beverages to the still.  No brandy? No vodkas? Only one whiskey? Gin? As there is neither corn nor agavae, I guess bourbon and tequila are out (lest he add a fictional version/just add those in, agave is a desert/tropical plant afterall).

You could just call the still something else. It doesn't really matter all workshops are just made with one material of some kind so there's no saying what's supposed to be in there.

[Alfrodo]

You realize that only three of the 80 products of the "still" (dwarven rum, swamp whiskey, and river spirits) actually require distilliation? Everything else is a beer, wine, or cider (fruit beer, really).  3 out of 80... I'm saying that the "half-assed" system isn't magic so much as Toady just slinging things together and moving to the next workshop.  Particularly in a game like this with only one developer working over years, a layer of polish tends to be severely lacking.  Thus, the dwarven still that makes virtually no "distilled" beverages has been in the game for ages.  Now that we are actually touching onto the topic of research and chemistry... is distillation going to be apart of this? Does the still need a layer of polish to reflect this? Or are the "chemistry" secrets going to presuppose distillation and specialized lab equipment for it.  At this point, its mostly just... meh, maybe? We are basically just waiting for Toady to push it out and/or add that coat of "polish" that would make these two more in line.  Personally I'd just be happy with adding more distilled beverages to the still.  No brandy? No vodkas? Only one whiskey? Gin? As there is neither corn nor agavae, I guess bourbon and tequila are out (lest he add a fictional version/just add those in, agave is a desert/tropical plant afterall).

You could just call the still something else. It doesn't really matter all workshops are just made with one material of some kind so there's no saying what's supposed to be in there.

Alcoholery
Brewing Station
Actually a fermentation barrel
Placeholder until I can make alcohol more interesting
That place where alcohol is magically produced
Yeastomancer's workshop
Booze fountain
Dwarf Heaven

With toady wanting to overhaul alcohol anyway, I think the Still is most likely a placeholder.  I think they just use the boiler part of the still most of the time, without using the tubular part.

[SixOfSpades]

Largely true, I for one would favor dwarven civs starting out with beer(s) only, being able to farm underground crops only, and being able to build a Brewery only. As the civilization develops [during worldgen], through experimentation and/or trade, they would learn how to grow surface plants, vint wines, and distill spirits. I have nothing against preventing Distilling from being researched until after there is sufficient glassworking / alchemical infrastructure to support it, I just wanted to emphasize how the game does, in fact, currently work.

No brandy?

Just pointing out that brandy is distilled wine, meaning its production would require developing two types of booze.

[Starver]

Regardless of the distillation aspect, how many dwarf-days does it take to ferment the alcoholic drinks?

It reminds me of Seven-star batata...

And my quick research regarding homebrewed beers indicates "a few days", although not necessarily to good quality.  (I'm pretty sure that wines ought to take longer, although who knows what kinds of Vin Plonk get produced in a similarly amateur manner.)

(Not that Roundworld physics and chemistry need be relevent to Dorfworld physics and chemistry alchemy.  And, after all, we were talking about alchemy in general, so this interesting diversion to brewing and derivative beverage production might not be exactly related to the original matter.  Not that I expect this to stop the divert... )

[Devin]

Oh god, can you imagine osmium warhammers?  That'd be...no words.

(Osmium's density is more than twice that of silver, and nearly three times that of iron/steel.  It's really really dense.)

[Alfrodo]

Oh god, can you imagine osmium warhammers?  That'd be...no words.

(Osmium's density is more than twice that of silver, and nearly three times that of iron/steel.  It's really really dense.)

for comparison:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Feather Wood: 0.1 gram / cubic centimeter
Wood*: 0.5 gram / cubic centimeter.
Water: 1 gram / cubic centimeter
Iron: 8 grams / cubic centimeter
Copper: 9 grams / cubic centimeter
Silver: 11 grams / cubic centimeter
Lead: 11 grams / cubic centimeter
Gold: 19 grams / cubic centimeter
Iridium: 22 grams / cubic centimeter
Osmium: 22 grams / cubic centimeter


This was from memory, feel free to correct me..

* Most woods in DF have 0.5 as a placeholder value, mostly the fruit woods that he didn't feel like getting the value for.
Because why cut down a mango tree when you can have mangos?

Plus, it's not soft like silver either, it's about as hard as steel.  but... It's brittle as frozen pie crust.  So it'd make insane maces/hammers but very poor anything else.

I'm not even sure if it would be possible to work osmium, its melting point is so high anything with fires that hot would yield before it did, unless you made the forge out of wolframite...

[Devin]

To handle the brittleness it'd probably be best to use it as a core for weight with a steel outer component.  Working it would definitely be a challenge with stuff available to dwarves though.  I'm not sure there's any method that'd work.

[Bumber]

Platinum already has a density of 21.40 g/cm^3. Osmium isn't any more impressive for a blunt weapon.

[AceSV]

Oh god, can you imagine osmium warhammers?  That'd be...no words.

(Osmium's density is more than twice that of silver, and nearly three times that of iron/steel.  It's really really dense.)

I don't have to imagine it, I modded it one time.  A goblin marched onto my map with either an osmium or tungsten weapon and completely destroyed my entire fortress with it. 

Actually, osmium is used for pen tips and some tools because its hardness holds up well to constant use.  I think an osmium coating on a more flexible core would make a better weapon, although you would lose the density.  That kind of unintuitive application strikes me as a good thing for alchemy to do.  Supposedly, chinese alchemists used some kind of chemical method to coat Qin dynasty crossbow bolts with chromium, effectively making them stainless steel. 

In realityland, osmium is a lot rarer and less effective than tungsten, and produces the insanely poisonous and flammable compound, osmium tetroxide, so it must be used as an alloy.  I've heard that an osmium sword would probably burst into flames as it struck other metals. 

[Starver]

In realityland, osmium is a lot rarer and less effective than tungsten, and produces the insanely poisonous and flammable compound, osmium tetroxide, so it must be used as an alloy.  I've heard that an osmium sword would probably burst into flames as it struck other metals.

Flaming swords?  What's not to like?

But I wasn't sure about an oxide (tetroxide, no less!) being flammable.  Apparently the solid is volatile, though. (Strange, as the MP is 40°C, but the BP is way up at 130°C.  Must be something to do with vapour pressure.)  Maybe that's what you mean. And, of course, the possibility of Osmium oxidising to OsO₄ (or any of its other oxides) and the mix of oxide valencies meaning both use of and donor oxygen around other elements, accordingly to the relative hunger for oxidation/reduction.

(While look at information for that, Iridium's oxidation states popped out at me...)

Of course, whilst Dorfs are traditionally metalworkers, so naturally metallic elements would be their primary interests, one imagines a dwarven alchemist being just mad enough to head into the realms of non-metallic elements.  Perhaps to certain extremes.

I love dragging that link out (actually, that's the new link, and I've not checked that he's moved everything over from his old site, a couple of months ago).  There's some kind of thrill reading about the exotic flourine chemistry.

Spoiler: And even the 'boring' nitrogen chemistry can be interesting (click to show/hide)

(Yes, C₂N₁₄.  H_zero, O_zero, nothing else.  At least until it decides to decompose)

[Alfrodo]

So... Osmium would be unusable, and iridium wouldn't be weapon quality, but an alloy of them could be weapon quality, if that keeps the tetroxide and other nasties at bay...

so.. what would osmiridium look like gameplay wise for weapons?  Other than making bludgeoning weapons more effective then the hand of god.

[Bumber]

But I wasn't sure about an oxide (tetroxide, no less!) being flammable.

I would assume it's the same concept as a thermite reaction. Not exactly a low activation energy, though. Thermite would be DF fire-safe.

[AceSV]

Sorry, I'm not into chemistry, I had flammability wrong.

Wikipedia:

Finely divided metallic osmium is pyrophoric and reacts with oxygen at room temperature forming volatile osmium tetroxide. Some osmium compounds are also converted to the tetroxide if oxygen is present. This makes osmium tetroxide the main source of contact with the environment.
Osmium tetroxide is highly volatile and penetrates skin readily, and is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and skin contact.[68] Airborne low concentrations of osmium tetroxide vapor can cause lung congestion and skin or eye damage,

This is probably where I heard it:  https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100120132328AAE3tez



Also the unfortunate fact of science is that there just isn't a better cutting material than steel.  The best use for exotic metals would be as steel alloys. 

Metallurgy can get more complicated than simply refining and alloying metals.  Check out the Iron Pillar of Delhi.  Despite being 1600 years old and living in hot humid India, it hasn't rusted or corroded due to a special layer on the outside.  The crossbow bolts stored with the terracotta warriors have a chromium coating that has likewise preserved them for thousands of years.