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Author Topic: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE  (Read 1741027 times)

EnigmaticHat

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4845 on: May 24, 2017, 04:14:03 pm »

No its true.  One of the things that makes Paradox games great is that the map can exist as something other than RISK because you don't get land permanently just because you militarily occupied it.  In total war games for example everything is naturally moving towards one faction conquering the world, because war inevitably results in large land gains for one side.  Not true of most Paradox games.  One of the weaknesses that prevents things from staying completely interesting in Paradox games is that they can't simulate new nations emerging, and they also rather fail at the realpolitik "yesterday's enemies are tomorrow's friends."  So things get stale over time, but because of the peace negotiations system every game has things take a lot longer to get stale.  CK2 is the only game that really showed how political needs change with each generation, and it had a pretty good system for new nations emerging, but its also snowbally as fuck so that kinda hurts it.

Anyway, I think that's what a lot of the early complaints about Stellaris were that it got stale fast.  People were coming from the CK/EU/Vicky perspective where you might live with your neighbors for 300+ years, and at the end of it still possibly have interesting interactions with them.  But on release at least you would very quickly consume/federate/permanently be at good relations with your neighbors and then the politics were pretty empty after that.
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Neonivek

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4846 on: May 24, 2017, 04:26:19 pm »

Quote
CK2 is the only game that really showed how political needs change with each generation, and it had a pretty good system for new nations emerging, but its also snowbally as fuck so that kinda hurts it

Crusader Kings 2's biggest asset is that it isn't trying to be a game you "beat" so to speak. Well ignoring its score system, but then again IMO they should just remove the score system entirely, or at least remove all features that are "score only" (So instead of "You get more score" it has other effects).

Honestly if it had FAAAAAR better simulation aspects in terms of being able to handle people... I'd be playing Crusader Kings 2 right now. Heck I'd probably say it was one of the best games ever made in spite of its other faults.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 04:36:26 pm by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4847 on: May 24, 2017, 05:36:00 pm »

Oh god, when you put it like that I realize just how unrealistic all of Paradox's peace negotiation systems are.

No wonder their most popular series is the one where wars have only 4 possible outcomes and 3 of them are always the same.
In EU4 I once did a Byzantium run where I completely steamrolled Greece and the Balkans, recapturing a lot of the Ottoman Byzantine cores, causing a massive coalition to form against me. The coalition declared war upon me, yet because the Ottoman Empire was warning the country which started the coalition war, the Ottomans were now fighting on the same side as me, trying to defend me from people who wanted to return their cores. Utterly crushed, I resolved the war by giving away all of the Ottoman's most important lands to insignificant nations and destroyed their Empire, allowing me to annex the rest of them in a subsequent war.

This is acceptable

Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4848 on: May 24, 2017, 09:43:33 pm »

Honestly if it had FAAAAAR better simulation aspects in terms of being able to handle people... I'd be playing Crusader Kings 2 right now. Heck I'd probably say it was one of the best games ever made in spite of its other faults.

Thou art cruising for yon bruising with that manner of comment.

No its true.  One of the things that makes Paradox games great is that the map can exist as something other than RISK because you don't get land permanently just because you militarily occupied it.  In total war games for example everything is naturally moving towards one faction conquering the world, because war inevitably results in large land gains for one side.  Not true of most Paradox games.  One of the weaknesses that prevents things from staying completely interesting in Paradox games is that they can't simulate new nations emerging, and they also rather fail at the realpolitik "yesterday's enemies are tomorrow's friends."  So things get stale over time, but because of the peace negotiations system every game has things take a lot longer to get stale.  CK2 is the only game that really showed how political needs change with each generation, and it had a pretty good system for new nations emerging, but its also snowbally as fuck so that kinda hurts it.

Anyway, I think that's what a lot of the early complaints about Stellaris were that it got stale fast.  People were coming from the CK/EU/Vicky perspective where you might live with your neighbors for 300+ years, and at the end of it still possibly have interesting interactions with them.  But on release at least you would very quickly consume/federate/permanently be at good relations with your neighbors and then the politics were pretty empty after that.

Stellaris is just very flat. While they're adding more content, it's hasn't been the much-needed additional mechanics. For example, instead of adding a billion events to fill up our time, why not make managing a stellar empire more time intensive? Let's get a better economy, more in-depth governor/vassal system, and just more micromanagement stuff going on (with the option to automate what we can't handle.)
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4849 on: May 24, 2017, 10:17:24 pm »

I'd like to see meaningful trade.  And a sphere of influence system where there's some kind of convincing reason to have underlings instead of just conquering everyone.  And indeed for the underlyings some kind of plausible path to independence so getting sphere'd (or vassalized or whatever) isn't functionally the same thing as being conquered.

Actually what I'd really want to see (what I've been waiting for any strategy game to give me) is to have a superpower system where superpowers woo smaller powers into alignment with offers and threats while smaller powers try to play coy until they can find an offer that gives them what they want.  And then if two aligned little guys fight you have a proxy war that can escalate into the two superpowers outright declaring war. *chants* space cold war, space cold war
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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4850 on: May 25, 2017, 09:35:09 am »

I'm in the middle of a game (which I might be about to lose; I think I lost half my fleet :/) where I got the Omnicultural achievement... As a Fanatic Purifier. You know, the guys who hate everyone not them?

That achievement is where a non-founder-species leader becomes the ruler of your nation.

The leader in question was a penguin from a primitive Machine society that I abducted; after that, every election he was the only leader on the ballet and had 100% support (I think it was a bug, or something.)

My race of fanatically purging lizardbugs only stopped being given a North Korean-style election of a primitive penguin once I turned synth; he turned into a Cylenth the same with everyone else, so I guess that fixed the buggy situation and he was just one of many to be chosen.

(Fuck, I should have named my guys the "Cynnth." Their original name was Cynn, so...)
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AlStar

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4851 on: May 25, 2017, 09:51:55 am »

"Primitive Penguins for Progress!"

Maybe he was just the mascot for the shadowy lizardbug council that was really running things in the background.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4852 on: May 25, 2017, 10:02:34 am »

The AI sure do like throwing their buddies under the bus.
Not entirely unrealistic, though. There have been a few instances where peace agreements were basically "Yeah, you can take that guy's land, but don't take ours."
It's as realistic as France getting steamrolled by Germany, and giving up the UK in its peace deal
Doesn't make sense for you to be able to give up an ally that hasn't been defeated, when they'd likely object to having enemy administrators just take them over without a fight

Loud Whispers

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4853 on: May 31, 2017, 06:30:57 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Currently doing a one-planet-minor run as fanatical purifiers in a huge universe that only has one other Empire in it (excluding the four fallen Empires). Been exploring the galaxy orbital bombarding all the primitive civilizations, playing hyper-tall and amassing a small but elite core of ships with which to annihilate various spaceborne species. With my exploration fleets searching for rival spaceborne civilizations (which I can actually take on and win), happened upon this guy with one of my fleets (which did not last long). Though they did not last long, they lasted long enough to gather valuable combat data - we are but motes of dust.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4854 on: June 01, 2017, 09:14:10 am »

Well, yeah. Usually it's a case of "Hey, those guys have basically no army. Go nuts, we won't help them."
To be fair Finlanding a country's ally is a bit different from long-distance Polanding

Also messing with planet/ship scaling is fun
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
unf
leviathan   aesthetic
Just need to increase the collision radius for ships and it'll be all set. Might also increase the range of kinetic artillery so that maximum dakka battleships become viable

GiglameshDespair

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4855 on: June 01, 2017, 09:15:03 am »

It annoys me tributaries eon't count towards victory conditions.
They're still under my dominion. Why do only Vassals count?

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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4856 on: June 01, 2017, 09:21:36 am »

Because tributaries are just paying you money to avoid an ass kicking. You don't actually have control over their diplomacy, military, etc, etc. They're still functionally independent despite the tribute they're paying you, hence why they don't count towards victory conditions. Of course if they're already a tributary then I don't see why you'd have any problems making them a vassal via asking or warfare but what do I know?
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4857 on: June 01, 2017, 09:59:40 am »

I can't integrate tributaries and i can't set vassalisation as a war goal either.

Certainly, I can get around it - release them and then wait until the timer ticks along enough years I can declare war again. It's not difficult, but it's me just sitting and waiting until I'll allowed to kick their teeth in.
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Teneb

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4858 on: June 02, 2017, 05:25:11 am »

Looks like the AI rebellion crisis is being replaced.

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #4859 on: June 02, 2017, 05:57:31 am »

One thing bugging me about the game, lore-wise, is disconnect between stories. I think Fallen Empires, Pre-Cursor quest lines and crises should be somehow connected, story-wise. Like that one Pre-Cursor Civ could actually be the origin of a FE or the like. Or the Enclaves should have something to say about these matters. Now the game universe is sort of a hodgepodge of unconnected parts. At worst I can see it turning into something like D&D worlds with a patchwork of things without rhyme or reason because you just need to use everything in the Monster Manuals somehow.
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