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[Draignean]

I've recently started a 1.5 Utopia playthrough with a fairly standard democratic Human civ, and I feel I'm losing traction again, just like the last time I played.

I start exploring, colonize 2-3 planets, build some frontier outposts (not many due to influence restrictions) to enable grabbing resources from a few more systems, surveying an outer ring of systems all along, researching anomalies and finding a couple of alien civs. My energy and mineral production grows and I can more easily develop my colonies, build mining/research stations and support a larger fleet. Around this time I have enough tech to upgrade my corvettes for the first time, and build my first destroyers.

And then I hit some kind of lull. My colonies are soon developed as much as their population growth allows, so building new stuff becomes a sporadic task. And this is when I start losing traction, even though I don't think I've even reached the mid-game: what's there to do other than continue teching up, survey ever outwards and maybe pick a fight with a neighbour, just because?

I could theoretically colonize more planets, but at least on the default map settings, yellow+ worlds aren't common at all. So there aren't any suitable candidates anywhere near my space. Mars and another random planet can technically be terraformed, but for a truckload of energy and a second technology from who knows how far up (down?) the tech tree.

Thoughts appreciated.

Well, I'm also a noob, but this is basically what I did when I got to that point:

1. Habitats. So many habitats. Basically I churned out nothing but habitats for a while after hitting core world capacity. Essentially they're perfect little worlds with great structures.

2. Get vassals, protectorates, uplift species. I had an AI (A Spiritualist AI that made it illegal to research AI) somehow develop right next to me. It made a wonderful little protectorate to add to my power.

3. A couple of strategic wars peacekeeping actions can do wonders to win over a couple of slave worlds liberated planets to your empire.

[Greenbane]

Well, I'm also a noob, but this is basically what I did when I got to that point:

1. Habitats. So many habitats. Basically I churned out nothing but habitats for a while after hitting core world capacity. Essentially they're perfect little worlds with great structures.

2. Get vassals, protectorates, uplift species. I had an AI (A Spiritualist AI that made it illegal to research AI) somehow develop right next to me. It made a wonderful little protectorate to add to my power.

3. A couple of strategic wars peacekeeping actions can do wonders to win over a couple of slave worlds liberated planets to your empire.

That's good stuff. Haven't researched habitats yet, and the tech tree doesn't give you any visibility beyond the three generated choices per category (due to randomness). Haven't seen any primitives so far. There's a species of evangelist zealots nearby, who've hated me off the bat. I suppose I could kick off a war with them, but war seems all I can do right now.

I feel the game needs more stuff to do in peacetime. More fleshed out exploration stuff beyond anomaly research, more intricate empire management. Stuff like civilian traffic (yeah, there's a mod, but something more official). More life in general, but I guess all space 4X games suffer from this. Stellaris has the chance to go beyond the standard tech up -> conquer everything of 4X.

[Sirus]

I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.

Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.

[Chiefwaffles]

Yeah. The only thing pirates in Stellaris do to players is "if you don't build 2 more starting corvettes by the time pirates spawn, you might lose a mining station".

[Draignean]

Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.

It'd be interesting if, instead of just spawning ships, sufficient unrest and border friction would allow your enemies to bankroll a black-flag station. The station pops up in their border territory and commerce raids the empire it came from, increasing unrest, increasing chances of revolt, and paying a small amount of the money it raids back to the empire sponsoring it.

Which is more privateering than straight up piracy, but it would give empires that don't want to go to war but REALLY hate one another something to do other than hiding out in treetops and shouting out rude names.

[umiman]

Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.

It'd be interesting if, instead of just spawning ships, sufficient unrest and border friction would allow your enemies to bankroll a black-flag station. The station pops up in their border territory and commerce raids the empire it came from, increasing unrest, increasing chances of revolt, and paying a small amount of the money it raids back to the empire sponsoring it.

Which is more privateering than straight up piracy, but it would give empires that don't want to go to war but REALLY hate one another something to do other than hiding out in treetops and shouting out rude names.

that half 4x half rts game (forget the name) had this. Was amazing for multiplayer.

Distant worlds has it too. Also great there.

[Uristides]

So I decided to colonize near a Fallen Empire. They were fellow spirituals and were sitting there for some centuries already, what harm could there be in it, right? And everything indeed went well enough, until out of nowhere they decided to become an Awakening Ascendancy, tried to make me a subject and declared on me shortly after I refused.
They were demanding me to tear down half of my border outposts, cede a whole bunch of planets and a whole lot more, and to make things worse for some reason we(me + federation) were considered the aggressors even though we were the ones who were declared upon.
They had like 2 60k fleets while my federation had a total of ~30k that couldn't coordinate for shit because paradox AI, I really thought it was game over for me right there. Until, after occupying some 4 of our planets, they just sat there doing absolutely nothing for months, maybe years. The resource drain hit me pretty hard and I had to tear a good chunk of my fleet and stations, but I managed to survive until they used their 30% warscore to make a fairly mild demand to cede one planet(a really good one though, RIP) and give up a couple of border outposts.

So, wtf was that CB that allows the declarer to be the defender and does it happen often that the AI simply stops pushing when they could easily lay waste to the whole enemy territory?

[Teneb]

Awakened Empires are supposed to be OP. Unless you are blobbing out of control, just become their subject until you are strong enough to fight back.

[NullForceOmega]

I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.

Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.

And why, exactly, would there be pirates hanging around when the vast majority of civilizations have just barely reached interstellar capability?  Space pirates should function much like they do now in Stellaris, with the addition of periodic outbreaks during periods of high unrest, or when your navy isn't large enough to defend your space.  They also need to stop blowing up stations and instead start siphoning minerals and energy (maybe still attack research stations, hold them for ransom or something.)  Every 4x I've ever seen except for SoaSE gets space piracy flat out wrong, you have to HAVE large scale movement of resources for piracy to be viable, that doesn't exist in the beginning of the space colonization age.

[umiman]

I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.

Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.

And why, exactly, would there be pirates hanging around when the vast majority of civilizations have just barely reached interstellar capability?  Space pirates should function much like they do now in Stellaris, with the addition of periodic outbreaks during periods of high unrest, or when your navy isn't large enough to defend your space.  They also need to stop blowing up stations and instead start siphoning minerals and energy (maybe still attack research stations, hold them for ransom or something.)  Every 4x I've ever seen except for SoaSE gets space piracy flat out wrong, you have to HAVE large scale movement of resources for piracy to be viable, that doesn't exist in the beginning of the space colonization age.

In Distant Worlds, it's explained that the pirates actually existed way before any of the fledgling civs do. It's why your first contact is not usually with another peaceful civ but a pirate who extorts you.

Wait, I think I got that wrong. I think all the races were spaceborne before, but then a calamity happened and they all regressed while the pirates stuck around.

Something like that.

There are big pirate fleets in Stellaris though. They do nothing but sit in a single system like any other space threat. Around 3k fleet strength. So not pirates but more like a terrain hazard.

[Sirus]

I know this is done by most every space 4X out there but I badly wish that pirates were more of a thing. Why would they only show up in a single tiny group in the early game? Piracy has existed for about as long as ships have, there's no reason whatsoever that they'd simply stop existing in space.

Ideally, pirate stations would spawn inside/near civs that have a lot of unrest, and strike at nearby civs that lack a strong navy. The fleets that the stations send out should hit mining stations and even blockade fringe worlds without space ports. If civilian traffic ever gets added to the base game they should also be viable targets.

And why, exactly, would there be pirates hanging around when the vast majority of civilizations have just barely reached interstellar capability?  Space pirates should function much like they do now in Stellaris, with the addition of periodic outbreaks during periods of high unrest, or when your navy isn't large enough to defend your space.  They also need to stop blowing up stations and instead start siphoning minerals and energy (maybe still attack research stations, hold them for ransom or something.)  Every 4x I've ever seen except for SoaSE gets space piracy flat out wrong, you have to HAVE large scale movement of resources for piracy to be viable, that doesn't exist in the beginning of the space colonization age.

In what part of my post did I say anything about pirates just "hanging around"? I said they should spawn in response to unrest and targets of opportunity, and that it made no sense for piracy to simply stop after that initial early-game event group is dealt with.

Besides, if you use advanced start AIs then pirates should indeed be "hanging around"; they're pirates from those civilizations that are already a galactic presence.

[NullForceOmega]

Tbh, that is a very stupid explanation tho'.  It's much more reasonable to assume that if there were pre-existing 'pirate' groups, they'd basically just be national entities that operate like a criminal syndicate, and extort new, weak races as they enter the inter-stellar community.  Other than their propensity to engage in said extortion they'd just be normal nations with exploitative ethics.  I really find the 'suddenly powerful space pirates' thing extremely stupid.

Sirus: Then they aren't pirates, they're privateers operating under a national system.  Pirates as independent operators require an existing framework of trade to function, so do privateers, they can't just be 'hanging around' ever.  It is not possible.  It violates the fundamental elements of being a 'pirate'.  That is my entire problem with the concept, it's always just 'suddenly pirates' without considering how piracy functions.

[Greenbane]

Pirates and pirate bases should be able to spawn in the event of system unrest, a corruption-like mechanic and/or covert foreign involvement. They'd make more sense with civilian traffic in the picture, and as it was said, if they actually stole resources instead of destroying sources of wealth. Perhaps they could board and capture stations, requiring you to divert troop transports to retake them instead of just dealing with marauding ships.

In case of foreign involvement, one such power could fund the pirates to various degrees, allowing them to grow and possibly overwhelm a lesser empire. They could eventually start taking over planets, perhaps, and form a proper faction of their own. Maybe that's too much, but the process would have its pros and cons, since pirates could be a tool to undermine an enemy, but at the same nothing they took would be yours. Eventually, you'd have to deal with them.

[NullForceOmega]

Pirates and pirate bases should be able to spawn in the event of system unrest, a corruption-like mechanic and/or covert foreign involvement. They'd make more sense with civilian traffic in the picture, and as it was said, if they actually stole resources instead of destroying sources of wealth. Perhaps they could board and capture stations, requiring you to divert troop transports to retake them instead of just dealing with marauding ships.

In case of foreign involvement, one such power could fund the pirates to various degrees, allowing them to grow and possibly overwhelm a lesser empire. They could eventually start taking over planets, perhaps, and form a proper faction of their own. Maybe that's too much, but the process would have its pros and cons, since pirates could be a tool to undermine an enemy, but at the same nothing they took would be yours. Eventually, you'd have to deal with them.

Yes, something like this is the best approach, I like this train of thought.

Distant Worlds probably tried the hardest to do this, but fell victim to the 'suddenly pirates' thing, where immediately, for no reason that makes even the slightest bit of sense, a bunch of aliens in control of a massively OP station with mystical 'we know where everything and everyone is' ability, just show up to ruin your shit (or force you to pay an increasingly repressive tithe that cripples your economy entirely).

It feels very strange that SoaSE is the only game(s) that seem to have gotten the idea mostly right, where the pirates are there for a reason (all of these systems you're waging war over used to be human colony worlds), and their interactions with you are motivated by greed.  That said it wasn't a very 'in-depth' mechanic, but SoaSE isn't really the most in-depth 4x either (more like an RTS in almost every way).

[Sirus]

Tbh, that is a very stupid explanation tho'.  It's much more reasonable to assume that if there were pre-existing 'pirate' groups, they'd basically just be national entities that operate like a criminal syndicate, and extort new, weak races as they enter the inter-stellar community.  Other than their propensity to engage in said extortion they'd just be normal nations with exploitative ethics.  I really find the 'suddenly powerful space pirates' thing extremely stupid.

Sirus: Then they aren't pirates, they're privateers operating under a national system.  Pirates as independent operators require an existing framework of trade to function, so do privateers, they can't just be 'hanging around' ever.  It is not possible.  It violates the fundamental elements of being a 'pirate'.  That is my entire problem with the concept, it's always just 'suddenly pirates' without considering how piracy functions.

What, you think the various planets in a civ have absolutely no trade with each other? Just because the game does not portray such a thing does not mean that there aren't transports filled with minerals, strategic resources, and (especially now with Banks) food throughout the civ. That stuff is probably quite valuable and people are going to try and get a hold of it - illegally if they must.