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[MetalSlimeHunt]

The point that I typically see made is that Yang and the Hive are basically a hypocrisy trap. Lots of people like the idea of transcendence, but what faction is most like that and most philosophically compatible with it? That's right, the Hive.

And the gaians

The Gaians live in harmony with Planet, but they don't truly understand what it means, they're just trying not to fuck up again like with Earth. Only in the late tech quotes does Deidre start to understand the nature of transcendence, while Yang is unknowingly aiming for almost exactly that form of society from the start, where one is one's self but also strengthens the whole.

Where does he encourage people to rebel against him? Seems to be the opposite, right down to the recycling tanks

What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

It's up for interpretation like most things in AC and especially regarding Yang, but I consider "now act on it" and telling them to master the output as encouraging rebellion, in the sense that it is necessary for their enlightenment of purpose. He's daring them to become like him, I suspect Yang is the type to wryly respect those who defy him even as he moves to have them nerve stapled and recycled. This is yet another instance of how the Hive is a weird synthesis of individualist and collectivist thought, rather than just the dictatorship it often appears as.

You first play the game, and everybody's all about Zhakarov and Lal or maybe Morgan for conventional understandings of science, humanity, and prosperity. Then you realize Deidre is right because of transcendence. Then you realize Miriam is right because this is the end of anything recognizable as humanity even if you don't transcend. And then finally, you realize Yang of all people had the clearest understanding all along.

Guys, can we get back to talking about this game instead of something from 10+ years ago?

Complaining about derails is worse than derails also haha what game OOOOWEEOOOOOOOOO~

[Loud Whispers]

The Gaians live in harmony with Planet, but they don't truly understand what it means, they're just trying not to fuck up again like with Earth. Only in the late tech quotes does Deidre start to understand the nature of transcendence, while Yang is unknowingly aiming for almost exactly that form of society from the start, where one is one's self but also strengthens the whole.

The Gaians may not understand what it means, but certainly Lady Deidre Skye does. And she is guiding the Gaians towards that final goal, from the start she is the one who makes headways into psionic warfare, mindworm-human communication, planet-human communication, social engineering for psionic hippytopia, detachment from materialism to the point of nudism etc.
I think the thing that separates Yang from Deidre is that Deidre's transcendence goal requires Planet. Yang guides his faction to it regardless of Planet.

What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

It's up for interpretation like most things in AC and especially regarding Yang, but I consider "now act on it" and telling them to master the output as encouraging rebellion, in the sense that it is necessary for their enlightenment of purpose. He's daring them to become like him, I suspect Yang is the type to wryly respect those who defy him even as he moves to have them nerve stapled and recycled. This is yet another instance of how the Hive is a weird synthesis of individualist and collectivist thought, rather than just the dictatorship it often appears as.

I always thought this was much more to do with self-mastery, reminding his faction's pops that pain and agony is just another sensation altogether. Mind and matter, mind can win over matter - especially in light of his later essays where he says that enlightenment is not won through force of strength, but force of willpower. He is cultivating in his people the willpower needed to transcend the biological impulses and limitations inherent in human nature, the nature of being both nothing more than chemical processes, and the nature of being life. Couple that with the video accompanying the quote where a man is suspended with sinister spikes whirling around him, he calms, mastering his sensory input - his narrow chamber becomes an endless sky. Acting on it never once meant to me a message of rebellion, rather, a message of mastering the information output in the mind responding to the information input from the senses. The senses register pain and agony, how the mind responds is up to you. It helps that before I heard his quote I read some scientific journals regarding the curious ways pain works. If you stub your toe and you swear, this helps you to cope with pain. If you respond to your pain in such a way that you think more on the pain, the effect of the pain is magnified. If you focus on your task regardless of pain, you can push your body to breaking point in order to achieve a task - and in Yang's world, push it beyond breaking point.

You first play the game, and everybody's all about Zhakarov and Lal or maybe Morgan for conventional understandings of science, humanity, and prosperity. Then you realize Deidre is right because of transcendence. Then you realize Miriam is right because this is the end of anything recognizable as humanity even if you don't transcend. And then finally, you realize Yang of all people had the clearest understanding all along.

I think it's ambiguous who was right in the end, certainly Deidre wins but who was right? Who knows
I do like though that for so many the experience is the same. The moral inversion, who quickly you change your views on characters... Snap! Like that. Miriam "we must dissent" Godwinson and Deidre "our secret war" Skye always gets me.

Complaining about derails is worse than derails also haha what game OOOOWEEOOOOOOOOO~

I think it's useful comparing an old game that managed to properly diversify a handful of factions better than Stellaris which can have so many different civilizations all blend into one starmap of dominions, federations, kingdoms, core worlds and cereal bowls of blandness

[Rolan7]

soon to be horribly exterminated by the first faction to gain aerospace tech and chemical weapons

Doesn't this apply to everyone   Hence why the University, and even the Gaians, are OP as hell-
In the late game.
Where the research or efficiency lets them get aerospace first and, pardon my french, freakin pwn.

Guys, can we get back to talking about this game instead of something from 10+ years ago?

Like this game will be relevant in 2 years, or known of in 4.

[Sirus]

Yeah, you're right. It's not like Paradox games can have abnormally long life-spans thanks to updates and DLC released several years down the road.

If Alpha Centauri is such a great game, give it its own thread.

[Cruxador]

Guys, can we get back to talking about this game instead of something from 10+ years ago?

Like this game will be relevant in 2 years, or known of in 4.

In that amount of time, it might become almost as interesting to talk about as Alpha Centauri.

[PTTG??]

I keep imagining, vaguely, Stellaris + CK2's career.

What might it one day be?

[Cruxador]

I keep imagining, vaguely, Stellaris + CK2's career.

What might it one day be?

Well, CK2's over. They're doing the last DLC before retiring it from active support. It will probably continue to be a modding platform until the eventual release of CK3, but I don't see anything else coming out of it, and I think between overhauls like the Game of Thrones mod, Elder Kings, and After the End, plus overhauls like HIP (with SWMH and the portraits and ARKO and etc) we've already seen most of the best that'll come out of it. Some of that stuff will get refined further, and there might be a cool new thing, but there's not a lot of great dynamism remaining in the general shape of the trends.

As for Stellaris, we can probably infer somewhat accurately from CK2.

[Retropunch]

CK2 has been absolutely done to death now. It's a great game and all, but it's just been kicking around for ages and has done pretty much all it's going to.

The issue for me is, and always has been, that Stellaris has massive chunks missing that CK2/EU had from the get go. Espionage, actual characters, trade, etc. etc.

Whilst a lot of people have said 'oh they'll definitely get to it' I still haven't seen a hint of such fundamental systems going in, and I just don't know if they will. They're on their second 'big' update, and this looks like it's going to concentrate on ascension and late game perks - interesting stuff, but not a fundamental system.

I start to wonder if they've built the game with the ability to add those systems in - there comes a time when it's just too difficult/costly to hammer in those wide reaching systems, and they might just instead keep adding 'interesting' stuff rather than fundamental systems.

[Teneb]

Well, CK2's over. They're doing the last DLC before retiring it from active support.

Second last. There's still going to be one more according to Paradox. But yeah, CK2 is on its way to retirement. Can only DEUS VULT for so long.

[Loud Whispers]

Then you can DEUS VULT the sequel

[Ultimuh]

Then you can DEUS VULT the sequel

By God.. Imagine the new influx of DLCs to purchase!
My wallet ain't big enough for this!

[PTTG??]

Hey, I've got an idea: a few decisions that grant influence at the expense of other features. For example:

In each case, disabling the decision has an up-front influence cost, representing the difficulty of weaning the benefactors from their entitlements.

Favored Contractors:
+5% upkeep and production costs on military units. +1 Influence/Mo.

Scientific Orthodoxy:
-10% research output. +1 Influence/Mo.

Political Enfranchisement Programs:
+15% ideology drift. +1 Influence/Mo.

Moribund Bureaucracy:
(Must not have an upgraded form of government)
-5% Happiness on worlds other than the capitol. +1 Influence/Mo.

Civilian Investment:
-5% Energy and Minerals. +1 Influence/Mo.

Decadent Elite:
-25% leader experience gain. +1 Influence/Mo.

Military Cabal:
-5% ship HP, -5% ship damage, -5% ship speed. +1 Influence/Mo.

I'm sure there's more.

[Cruxador]

Some of the specifics are a bit logically questionable (a moribund bureaucracy seems like the opposite of something that would increase your ability to get things done politically, most egregiously) but I like the idea overall. Actually, for the bureacracy, an "entrenched bureacracy" that decreases influence but has some effects like EU's stability might make sense even though it's not what you're talking about.

In each case, disabling the decision has an up-front influence cost, representing the difficulty of weaning the benefactors from their entitlements.

Keep in mind that the devs are Swedes, and while they don't intentionally base mechanics on their own local politics, some concepts are so alien to their zeitgeist that they aren't going to go in simply because they don't make intrinsic sense to any of the devs.

[Loud Whispers]

Sweden will go down in memestory as a magical place

[PTTG??]

Some of the specifics are a bit logically questionable (a moribund bureaucracy seems like the opposite of something that would increase your ability to get things done politically, most egregiously) but I like the idea overall. Actually, for the bureaucracy, an "entrenched bureaucracy" that decreases influence but has some effects like EU's stability might make sense even though it's not what you're talking about.

In each case, disabling the decision has an up-front influence cost, representing the difficulty of weaning the benefactors from their entitlements.

Keep in mind that the devs are Swedes, and while they don't intentionally base mechanics on their own local politics, some concepts are so alien to their zeitgeist that they aren't going to go in simply because they don't make intrinsic sense to any of the devs.

The argument behind the moribund bureaucracy is that it's extremely difficult for anyone to appeal decisions made by the ruling elite-- who presumably have staff and executive powers that supersede it. Those outside of "the system" are unhappy, but those in it get what they want. I'm more than willing to hear arguments for an alternative name for an "Influence at the expense of Happiness" edict.

Rather than as a political statement, I felt that the cost-to-disable would require some balancing factor, otherwise (for instance) Favored Contractors would be an automatic yes during peacetime and then disabled during even the briefest period that the fleets are out of dry-dock. I felt that in order to have meaning, the edicts should provide a certain amount of inconvenience.

Military Cabal was a tough one. I was trying to come up with a way to describe a great deal of incompetence and nepotism in the middle-ranks with the effect that ships are somewhat less effective.

Oh, here's one:
Introspective Doctrine:
-10% to border size, +1 Influence/Mo.

Colonial Authority:
-1 Core System, +1 Influence/Mo.

Honestly even as I do this a few of these could be nicely inverted.