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[sambojin]

I guess what I'm saying is, Stellaris lends itself well to spoken or written diplomacy. The actual diplomacy system is mostly just there to allow you to interact with AI players, not humans.

As a question, how good are the "message your opponent/ally" systems in-game? Between players?

I know Stars! had basic message options, but it was expected that you email diplomacy. Yes, late 90's and all that. It worked beautifully.

But agreements get made by people. AIs get forced into diplo-ingame-thingamagigs. And that is where this game is great. People agreeing, or backstabbing the hell out of each other. At the correct time, of course.

But most importantly, so you win. And no-one else.


Secondary question: Do you play multiplayer 4X games so you and your friends can roflstomp the AI (considering it's an almost foregone conclusion in SP, why do you need the help)? Or do you play them to beat your friends, and AI players are a useful tool to that end?

Thus the unrevealed subtlety to the systems so far. About 4-8 players would make for a great game, if there could only be one winner.

[Flying Dice]

Don't try to excuse things. Paradox games have never been exclusively oriented around multiplayer, and winning vs. AI is never an expected outcome in most good 4Xes unless you play on pussy difficulty levels or cheat.

The fact that player diplomacy can occur outside of the structure of a game's diplomatic system doesn't excuse having a shitty, bare-bones diplomatic system. Aurora has a more in-depth diplomacy system, and that's literally just a set of different factors which result in your diplomacy score with a race going up (and eventually allowing trading, alliance, &c.) or down (resulting in war). Same shit as Stellaris, but there's no expectation of anything more fleshed out and not really any need for it. By contrast, Stellaris is also just a set of different factors which result in your diplomacy score with a race going up (eventually allowing... disadvantageous alliances and federations with the shitty little powers) or down (resulting in them thinking that you're mean).

Stellaris diplomacy is bad enough that a system where the expected outcome of all diplomatic encounters is either a slow, inevitable spiral into a war of annihilation or a de facto agreement of non-interference is more interesting and more functional. That's what I'm saying. All of the little nuances that made diplomacy, DoWs, and peace treaties palatable in other Paradox games are missing. No espionage, nothing beyond alliances/feds and the shittiest implementation of research agreements I've ever seen (since the AI basically never grants any of the other simple agreements that were included), incredibly limited options for DoWs and peace deals, and a lack of the standard historical context to help you fill in the gaps for all this shit.

Poland negotiating a royal marriage with Portugal and allying with the Ottomans for a war against the Papal State may not be interesting mechanically in EUIV or whatever, but the informed context adds some quality to it. Nobody ever gave two shits about the Republic of Gor'Blax entering a research agreement with the Mary Sue Confederation in which one or both might potentially get a bonus to their research... on a single tech... if they happen to roll a tech card which has already been researched by the other... within the brief time span of the agreement in which they will likely only research five or six new technologies. >.>

[sambojin]

I think we may be agreeing in different ways.

The diplomacy system is pointless between human players. It is meant to be "win or bust" for them, and diplo just gives short term advantages. It does it with AIs too. Thus my "outside of the shitty diplomacy system" thoughts. Is that intended?

It's nothing like a normal Paradox game in that context. Should it be like normal PD games?

Well, probably. That's what people want. But it won't be a good 4X if it happens, it'll be PD games in space. Which would be cool as well. The line straddle is annoying though, between the genres.


I want DoW3 to be good too. More like DoW1 though

[Kanil]

Secondary question: Do you play multiplayer 4X games so you and your friends can roflstomp the AI (considering it's an almost foregone conclusion in SP, why do you need the help)?

Pretty much. Playing against them is about as much of a foregone conclusion.

[Flying Dice]

Don't be coy about abbreviations. It's not cute or funny.

And, again, there's nothing preventing it from being a good 4X. The bones are there, it's just the typical Paradox MO preventing it. Because good 4Xes generally have good diplomacy systems and decent AI (or, at the very least, ones appropriate to the game). The line straddle is there only because they half-assed everything instead of committing to anything.

[sambojin]

Yeah. Agreed.

I'm still pretty sure that in a smaller galaxy, with 3-8 human players, at a good speed, this still has the chance of being a pretty good 4X.

Tech doesn't matter? It probably doesn't when the galaxy is huge, and there's tonnes of species all doing research.

A few systems gained for winning a war isn't floating your boat? Less stars available makes it a reasonable win.

Co-op vs AI? Well, you are human. Of course you collude better..... Outside the diplomacy system in the game as well. But small moves with bigger impacts in a smaller environment count, even with the AI.

Bland species? Maybe because there's a literal fuck-tonne of them. Just gotta have less of them so they have at least some personality.


I'm not forgiving the massive faults in the game, I'm just saying that the game-types people often play aren't its strong point. Don't believe the hype. There is not a maximal galaxy size with interesting species and interactions available.

There probably is a nice little MP 4X game sitting in the game options though. One where, in a nice little galaxy, shit really does matter.

[Glloyd]

Don't be coy about abbreviations. It's not cute or funny.

And, again, there's nothing preventing it from being a good 4X. The bones are there, it's just the typical Paradox MO preventing it. Because good 4Xes generally have good diplomacy systems and decent AI (or, at the very least, ones appropriate to the game). The line straddle is there only because they half-assed everything instead of committing to anything.

Also they don't have the shitty wargoal system. And usually different races/factions etc usually have something unique to them. But in Stellaris, you can have 20 Communal Fanatic Materialists who prefer Continental worlds if RNG goes that way, and they all play exactly the same despite being radically different species.

[Retropunch]

I'm not forgiving the massive faults in the game, I'm just saying that the game-types people often play aren't its strong point. Don't believe the hype. There is not a maximal galaxy size with interesting species and interactions available.

There probably is a nice little MP 4X game sitting in the game options though. One where, in a nice little galaxy, shit really does matter.

If Stellaris put itself forward as a small MP 4x then I'd be all for it, however it tries to be the exact opposite of that, and fails due to a missing or broken mechanics. If it happens to accidentally be a good small MP 4x (I'm not sure if it is or not) then that's completely incidental, and therefore beside the point.

To be honest, I think it's got a ton of potential and it'll eventually be great, my problem with it is that it was designed from the bottom up with massive DLC shaped holes for proper mechanics to go in. Things like the diplomacy and agent systems are clearly just placeholders for proper fleshed out systems.

[LoSboccacc]

yeah it seems it would work much better in 2 hours chunk than 20 hours slog, there simply isn't enough content to fuel a long 4x experience

[Zangi]

Is the honeymoon over?

[Not good with names]

I dunno, I think it's going to play a lot better mid-game with Asimov, so I'm not really despairing. 

I got over 100 hours and it's going to be improved.  Solid game design that may be lacking some flavor or quality of life, but I have played Paradox before so I knew exactly what I was getting into.  At the very least it's not fundamentally flawed (I'm looking at you, CIV V and that damn unit AI),  so I wouldn't see why anyone would write it off immediately.   

[Zangi]

I don't think anyone is writing this off.  Waiting for the improvements inevitable DLC, more then likely, yes.

[Orange Wizard]

Is the honeymoon over?

For me it's mostly because I started an affair with HOI4. Once Asimov's out I'll probably start Stellarising again.

[IronyOwl]

I'm not forgiving the massive faults in the game, I'm just saying that the game-types people often play aren't its strong point. Don't believe the hype. There is not a maximal galaxy size with interesting species and interactions available.

There probably is a nice little MP 4X game sitting in the game options though. One where, in a nice little galaxy, shit really does matter.

What about it makes it good for small MP games? Everything you've mentioned sounds like innate features of a specific group of people playing in a specific manner that they enjoy. The combat and conquest systems are shit and there's almost no interaction possible between two empires beyond murdering each other, so... what makes this any better than awesome backstabbing in any other game?

You could (relatively unsuccessfully) make the same case about how it's more of an RP game than a 4X, and that people bitching about it missing features are playing too mechanically. But it doesn't really do anything to promote or support that kind of play, so that's not a better argument than you could make about literally any game.

[forsaken1111]

Is the honeymoon over?

At this point I'm just patiently waiting in the bedroom while she does her hair. When the 1.2 patch comes out I expect a lot of the current issues to be cleaned up a bit, enough for me to have another go at a nice long game. Meantime I'm having a little summer fling with Mein Fuhrur