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[ZebioLizard2]

I'm rather disappointed that Tech problems are linear, Robots that grow too advanced always end up wanting to murder all life in the universe? No chance of freeing them and allowing them to live peacefully in your colonies or emigrate?

[Cicero]

Okay but most 4x games also play in a very similar "war of all against all" sort of way. Paradox has stated that they aim to shake up the solidified 4x paradigm by adding a greater emphasis on diplomacy.

They've also stated that they are going for a soft sci-fi feel. Lots of soft sci-fi depicts aliens and humans living and working together (ie: Mass Effect) Alien multiculturalism might not be "realistic" (whatever that is supposed to mean) but it seems like a fun mechanic (letting your people migrate to an empire and then using their presence as an excuse to invade them sounds hilarious). I think the fun factor should trump whether it is realistic for aliens to live together.

Well, my concern comes only partly from the realism perspective. The other side is that it's extremely similar to how culture works in other Paradox games. It's not particularly groundbreaking.

By the way, my realism perspective isn't quite so much as "this or that should be hard sci-fi-like" than "don't make it too fake". I suppose everyone has different tolerances, but I find it jarring and overly simplistic that supposedly alien species could closely work together as if they were the same damn species. It defeats the point of having aliens in the picture in the first place. Anyway, the more you know and all that.

Oh yeah your perspective makes sense. I'm hoping they make it a lot like Victoria 2, where non-accepted cultures join factions if they live in their core provinces, and if you elect a racist party will join general revolutionary factions to protect themselves. It would be pretty bad if they made it CK2/EU4 style, but I think the pops system lends it to the more complex Victoria 2 style of culture.

[gimli]

I'm not sure interspecies migration mechanics make much sense in most cases. We aren't talking about Victoria or EU or whatever, which feature a fundamentally homogeneous world. In a space 4X context, we're dealing with vast differences between species, from cultural to biological, and mingling is (or should be) extremely difficult if not impossible.

Well, my concern comes only partly from the realism perspective.

Realism? In a sci-fi game? Realism is the last thing we need.

[ZeroGravitas]

I'm not sure interspecies migration mechanics make much sense in most cases. We aren't talking about Victoria or EU or whatever, which feature a fundamentally homogeneous world. In a space 4X context, we're dealing with vast differences between species, from cultural to biological, and mingling is (or should be) extremely difficult if not impossible.

It's frankly stupid to assume multiculturalism can just be copy-pasted from an Earth context to a galactic scale. Not to mention it dilutes the point of having varied alien empires, if half of them will be largely the same multicultural mess. Political entities in Stellaris should be far more different from each other than England and France in EU.

But well, I suppose Stellaris is going after the tired, clichéd "aliens as humans with rubber foreheads" species differentiation method.

You're assuming that they'll be "mingling" in the sense of living in the same cities. But the equivalent to a "city" or "province" here is an entire planet, or at least a moon-sized object. Because planets have tiles, you'll probably end up with a situation where certain pops are living in certain tiles on a planet, and other pops are living in other tiles. Like insects in underground cave biomes and deserts and mammals on forest tiles. In other words, they might inhabit the same planet, but they wouldn't really be "mingling" together much, like humans and dolphins IRL.

I also found your post ironic or a more meta-level, which is that it assumes that aliens will have any kinds of concepts of "self" or "empire" or "culture." If we're going down the path of "what's 'too fake' about this situation" then "multiculturalism in space" is the least of your worries.

[Greenbane]

Realism? In a sci-fi game? Realism is the last thing we need.

I'm endlessly amazed by the sheer amount of sci-fi fans who don't know what science fiction means.

But I've made my point.

[Rolan7]

I love hard sci-fi too.  But the term "sci-fi" does mean futuristic fantasy now, and that's just how it is.  It's not so bad.

You have some good points about the practicality of alien races mingling, but I think ZeroGravitas has it right.  Xenos can coexist on a planet, and share culture while producing for a common goal.  Just look at the wild ideas humans are capable of embracing.  You might be overstating the physical barriers to cultural exchange.

[gimli]

Realism? In a sci-fi game? Realism is the last thing we need.

I'm endlessly amazed by the sheer amount of sci-fi fans who don't know what science fiction means.

But I've made my point.

I agree with this:

science fiction - the improbable made possible
fantasy - the impossible made probable
science fantasy - the combination of those 2, obviously. [It gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances. Where science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.] Ex.: Star Wars

Oh and btw, this is worth a look [Warning! 4182x2162 image] ->

Spoiler: The history of sci-fi (click to show/hide)

[ZeroGravitas]

cool chart, if a little teleological

[Drakale]

It's a pretty hard to parse chart, but it does put across the point that you can't really constrain so many different styles under a single term without ruffling some feathers.

[ZeroGravitas]

It's a pretty hard to parse chart, but it does put across the point that you can't really constrain so many different styles under a single term without ruffling some feathers.

especially because it tries to categorize by format as much as by subgenre

[Greenbane]

You have some good points about the practicality of alien races mingling, but I think ZeroGravitas has it right.  Xenos can coexist on a planet, and share culture while producing for a common goal.  Just look at the wild ideas humans are capable of embracing.  You might be overstating the physical barriers to cultural exchange.

We're fairly frequently at each other's throats on our own planet, within our own species. I can't fathom how two vastly different species would not be warring constantly if stuck on a planet together, especially if we consider things like natural resources. Worse, I don't see how the newer species would've put themselves in that position willingly (without nefarious intent), and the older not consider such intrusion an invasion.

How would we react, having enough trouble sharing resources with each other, if an alien species descended upon Earth and marked its territory, therefore restricting our own and everything that entails? What if the aforementioned dolphins were actually sapient, had a fully industrialized civilization, and declared large swathes of ocean their territory, asking some manner of payment to permit exploitation therein? It wouldn't be remotely pretty.

Or far more locally and personally, how would you feel if any random person walked into your home and said "okay, so I'm living here from now on"?

At any rate, we'll see how Stellaris deals with this in practice. Perhaps this faux multiculturalism won't be as widespread as I think.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

[superfluous arguments and overthinking intensifies]

[Cruxador]

It'll probably take DLC for a better ground combat system too

There, I fixed it. I am 99% sure that it will be overly simplistic [IE. shit] in vanilla. Heh...I guess that's why we have zero [correct me if I am wrong] information [& no DDs] about it.
Anyway, it would be good to have a complex gc system 5 expansions later...[ ex. surface combat in MoO 3.]

I suspect ground combat is going to be pretty much the same as assaulting a fort. Maybe like an EU4 one where you take the planet all at once, or maybe like a CK2 one where you have to take every land area (that has pops) individually, but I see no reason that this needs to have more detail to it than that.

Anyway, despite the possible expansion of the criticism, I was restricting it to the overly permissive migration mechanics. Most space 4X games severely restrict multiculturalism for a reason.

While I agree that in the strictest sense of realism, there would probably be vast differences between two species that make cohabitation and co-rule very impractical, I disagree with the notion that this automatically makes it bad to represent it in fiction that way. While it's true that real aliens will undoubtedly be extremely, you know, alien to us, and their very thought processes might be at best bewildering, this is a game by and for humans. We need to be able to understand our fellow beings to a certain degree, or their would be nothing to the game but conquest and extermination.

Further, I'm reasonably certain that the reason most 4X space games restrict multiculturalism is technical. There isn't a detailed modelling of pops that would be necessary for more integrated settings, and those games are mostly supposed to be about conquest anyway. Stellaris, while it contains 4X elements, is also a traditional Paradox grand strategy game in a lot of ways, and although Paradox isn't always successful one of the things they try to do is make their games about more than just blobbing. I consider this an asset.

The other side is that it's extremely similar to how culture works in other Paradox games. It's not particularly groundbreaking.

Why fix what ain't broke?

but I find it jarring and overly simplistic that supposedly alien species could closely work together as if they were the same damn species. It defeats the point of having aliens in the picture in the first place. Anyway, the more you know and all that.[/quote]Well, they're not the same. Each species will have inherent traits, including some you pick yourself and preferences for certain types of worlds. I'm not sure what "point" of alien species you think is being defeated here.

Because planets have tiles, you'll probably end up with a situation where certain pops are living in certain tiles on a planet, and other pops are living in other tiles.

Is this really still a "probably"? I haven't seen any indication that there can be pop variation in any way on a given tile.

[Shadowlord]

It'll probably take DLC for a better ground combat system too

There, I fixed it. I am 99% sure that it will be overly simplistic [IE. shit] in vanilla. Heh...I guess that's why we have zero [correct me if I am wrong] information [& no DDs] about it.
Anyway, it would be good to have a complex gc system 5 expansions later...[ ex. surface combat in MoO 3.]

I suspect ground combat is going to be pretty much the same as assaulting a fort.

Hype much?

[gimli]

Well, this is far beyond the scope of EU4 or CK2. [wow!] It should be more complicated to conquer a planet than a fort or a province. The more options & modifiers the better.
Anyway, I'e found a screenshot with regard to the "Armies" TAB:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hm....perhaps we are going to have 3 phases of combat? [orbital/aerial/ground]