Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Culise]

Dice reckons it wasn't an expansion, and that you're being disingenuous about that.

Specifically, as far as I can tell, he's asserting that because key features of the expansion pack (i.e., development) were implemented in the free patch for compatibility purposes and only unlocked by the corresponding expansion pack, that they were in fact free features and should have never been included in the expansion pack in the first place.  This, I believe, misses the point however - they were only included for compatibility in multiplayer, and if they had not been developed for the expansion pack, they would not have been in the free patch at all.  One of the major reasons for Paradox's shift to the present model was to reduce reliance on purchasing every expansion pack and maintain a single code base that can be regularly updated.  If Paradox had done the logical thing according to this and *not* included development or other similar features in the free patches as well as the DLC, it seems to me that due to the scope of the changes involved, each and every single DLC purchase would be completely necessary if you ever wanted to play multiplayer.  However, this seems like it would be a far more unfriendly DLC policy, so I'm hoping that's not what Flying Dice is actually getting at.

[gimli]

It's almost definitely not going to be released in a month. If it were, there would be way more videos of it around, there might have been a closed beta (maybe even a demo, like with EU4 and CK2), and the screenshots wouldn't say "ALPHA" (which comes before beta, which comes before release). It's much more likely for it to be released towards the end of the year, if not next year.

Yep, I think it's going to be released in Q2 or Q3 actually.
Anyway I can't wait for the next DD, since it's about diplomacy. I hope that one of the upcoming 3-4 DDs will be about the planetery invasions. I really want to see that how complex will that be @ release. I suppose it will be quite simplistic, and they will upgrade the system in an expansion. Who wouldn't buy an expansion which focuses on planetary battles? Heh.

[umiman]

It's almost definitely not going to be released in a month. If it were, there would be way more videos of it around, there might have been a closed beta (maybe even a demo, like with EU4 and CK2), and the screenshots wouldn't say "ALPHA" (which comes before beta, which comes before release). It's much more likely for it to be released towards the end of the year, if not next year.

Yep, I think it's going to be released in Q2 or Q3 actually.
Anyway I can't wait for the next DD, since it's about diplomacy. I hope that one of the upcoming 3-4 DDs will be about the planetery invasions. I really want to see that how complex will that be @ release. I suppose it will be quite simplistic, and they will upgrade the system in an expansion. Who wouldn't buy an expansion which focuses on planetary battles? Heh.

I don't think there has ever been a game that has done planetary battles well simply because of how absurd the simulation would be.

I mean, imagine if earth had to invade another earth. Like, literally conquer the whole thing enough that the whole planet is flying our (superior earth) flag. We'd need like... tens of millions of troops at the very least. Then we'd be fighting for decades if not centuries conquering every single region. Just attacking a portion of earth (say the US) would take an army so large it'd qualify as a separate global entity. And then after that comes the peacekeeping and assimilation efforts which would probably take just as long if not way longer. Just the logistics of such an action is leagues larger than any game has ever dreamed of doing so far.

And it's actually significantly easier when it's humans vs humans. After all, we have the same habitat considerations and more or less the same cultural mores, etc. What if we're the Gorkian Morg Race of Aberdeeks. What the fuck. We don't even breathe the same air, have completely different pressure and radiation resistances and we exclusively eat the borongian dispatches of lesser races. Also we can only communicate in eight person. What kind of insane levels of warmongering would it take for something completely alien to invade another planet?

It's always irked me how games, movies, and such all simplify such a huge undertaking. Especially when it's like, oh my one single scout ship has blockaded an entire planetary system. =|

Of course, I don't think any of that is really feasible to do in a game so... meh.

[Rolan7]

That's true, the scale is completely beyond war in actual history...

Maybe it can work when planetary governments have nigh-absolute power over their populations (which seems like a common conceit).  An invading force then just needs to perform a coup, leaving most of that local enforcement infrastructure in place.  Similar to how, in CK2 (or feudalism in general) you can win a war for a kingdom, and acquire the fealty of all the dukes.  They may try to revolt later, but the easiest course of action for them is to keep their heads down and accept the change in upper management.

Like the Combine in Half Life being essentially humans, just with genemods and new orders.  Or how in MoO2 feudal races are assimilated instantly, because the planetary governors see absolutely no problem with accepting new overlords.

In Star Control 2 the Ur-Quan offered considerable autonomy in exchange for fealty, with the alternative being nuclear annihilation.  Basically a coup from orbit.  (There was also an option to sit out the rest of the war under plotonium shields)

In short, I think planetary "invasions" are most realistic when they're coups which leave the locals in charge.

[umiman]

That's true, the scale is completely beyond war in actual history...

Maybe it can work when planetary governments have nigh-absolute power over their populations (which seems like a common conceit).  An invading force then just needs to perform a coup, leaving most of that local enforcement infrastructure in place.  Similar to how, in CK2 (or feudalism in general) you can win a war for a kingdom, and acquire the fealty of all the dukes.  They may try to revolt later, but the easiest course of action for them is to keep their heads down and accept the change in upper management.

Like the Combine in Half Life being essentially humans, just with genemods and new orders.  Or how in MoO2 feudal races are assimilated instantly, because the planetary governors see absolutely no problem with accepting new overlords.

In Star Control 2 the Ur-Quan offered considerable autonomy in exchange for fealty, with the alternative being nuclear annihilation.  Basically a coup from orbit.  (There was also an option to sit out the rest of the war under plotonium shields)

In short, I think planetary "invasions" are most realistic when they're coups which leave the locals in charge.

More or less.

So when I heard Paradox was doing this, I had a lot of hope they'd at least do the political parts right and it certainly looks like they are. With actual rebellions and such.

[gimli]

It's almost definitely not going to be released in a month. If it were, there would be way more videos of it around, there might have been a closed beta (maybe even a demo, like with EU4 and CK2), and the screenshots wouldn't say "ALPHA" (which comes before beta, which comes before release). It's much more likely for it to be released towards the end of the year, if not next year.

Yep, I think it's going to be released in Q2 or Q3 actually.
Anyway I can't wait for the next DD, since it's about diplomacy. I hope that one of the upcoming 3-4 DDs will be about the planetery invasions. I really want to see that how complex will that be @ release. I suppose it will be quite simplistic, and they will upgrade the system in an expansion. Who wouldn't buy an expansion which focuses on planetary battles? Heh.

I don't think there has ever been a game that has done planetary battles well simply because of how absurd the simulation would be.

I mean, imagine if earth had to invade another earth. Like, literally conquer the whole thing enough that the whole planet is flying our (superior earth) flag. We'd need like... tens of millions of troops at the very least. Then we'd be fighting for decades if not centuries conquering every single region. Just attacking a portion of earth (say the US) would take an army so large it'd qualify as a separate global entity. And then after that comes the peacekeeping and assimilation efforts which would probably take just as long if not way longer. Just the logistics of such an action is leagues larger than any game has ever dreamed of doing so far.

And it's actually significantly easier when it's humans vs humans. After all, we have the same habitat considerations and more or less the same cultural mores, etc. What if we're the Gorkian Morg Race of Aberdeeks. What the fuck. We don't even breathe the same air, have completely different pressure and radiation resistances and we exclusively eat the borongian dispatches of lesser races. Also we can only communicate in eight person. What kind of insane levels of warmongering would it take for something completely alien to invade another planet?

It's always irked me how games, movies, and such all simplify such a huge undertaking. Especially when it's like, oh my one single scout ship has blockaded an entire planetary system. =|

Of course, I don't think any of that is really feasible to do in a game so... meh.

True and agreed, but it must be simulated somehow...the more variables, the better. Ex.: racial attributes; techs -> weapons, armors, shields; # of troops; "special" units like mechs, vehicles, monsters of war [for the Pacific Rim fans! ] with their unique stats and abilities; global planetary modifiers like atmosphere & temperature etc. etc. You got the picture I guess. It can be done, but it would be a lot of work. I think that the v1.0 system will be fairly simplistic, it will be all about the # of troops & techs, but we shall see.

PS. As I heard Emperor of the Fading Suns was a very popular game and it had a tactical engine for planetary combat, but personally I am not a fan of it, since it would be "extremely unrealistic".

[Majestic7]

While heavily populated planets should be night impossible to invade without a considerable edge in technology or the willingness to commit basically genocide by levelling everything from orbit, colonial holdings would be easier. I hope the game will differentiate between these two things.

[gimli]

I think that a CK2/EU4 siege/occupation system could work if there would be surface maps [like in Galciv] & regions [# of regions based on the size of the planet] for each and every planet. Region = CK2/EU4 province on a global scale. The vanilla min max value should be around 4-20. They could add random events tied to this system [ex. x% chance that the remaining regions will throw in the towel if you control x% of the planet, global/regional revolts etc.]

[Teneb]

I think that a CK2/EU4 siege/occupation system could work if there would be surface maps [like in Galciv] & regions [# of regions based on the size of the planet] for each and every planet. Region = CK2/EU4 province on a global scale. The vanilla min max value should be around 4-20. They could add random events tied to this system [ex. x% chance that the remaining regions will throw in the towel if you control x% of the planet, global/regional revolts etc.]

Yeah, I could see that working. On a homeworld of any industrialized species it would be pretty hard since you'd have to "siege" each square, which could take a while. Sort of like siege a province with a high-level fort in EU4.

[Dutrius]

If you have to siege each individual tile, they could implement a system like in Vic2 where occupied tiles could revolt and potentially unoccupy the tile.

[Teneb]

That would be nice.

[umiman]

I think it's also absolutely vital there be a giant superlaser capable of destroying planets. It's a vital component of 4x space games and the quality of such a game is indirectly related to this ability.

For example, MoO2 had an incredible cutscene (back in the day) of you cutting a planet in half with the stellar converter.

[Toaster]

It's a far-future space game; it's supposed to have epic-sized tech.  A good example is the Stellar Manipulation tree in Space Empires- it even SOUNDS cool.

[umiman]

You'd think so, but so many devs seem to have completely forgotten this.

Just off the top of my head, Stardrive and Stardrive 2 don't have any way to obliterate a planet. Star Ruler 2 didn't have it (but I heard it got added into as a patch). Endless Space completely lacks this ability, which added exponentially to why I dislike that game. I'm pretty sure you couldn't destroy planets in Sins of a Solar Empire too, but they added it in as an expansion.

[Cruxador]

Destroying planets is a waste of resources anyway though. Much better to just engineer some super virus that quickly kills the alien sophists that live there, and then take the planet for yourself when they're dead.