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[gimli]

The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!

I mean... Could we get a similar system without cards?

Yeah that diplo system was quite good indeed.

PS.
After reading through all of the DDs again, there is only one thing what I don't like in the game so far. The representation of the surface of the planets [The GC 3 "surface system" is much better IMO] & the planetary population. You drag and drop population units at will, like it's the my documents folder. It just feels weird to me, but maybe it's just me.

[BFEL]

The best diplomacy system i found was in star ruler 2 with the card system, you could do lots of nifty things and gaining leverage against other empire was a thing to force a vote your way, IE: The enemy has a colony in your system, well pss a vote so they turn it to you, and if it happens you have allies who hates him they might even pitch in your favor!

While the system itself was kinda cool, it fell short for me mainly because it well...wasn't a diplomacy system?

I mean, it didn't actually change how other empires think of you in the slightest, it was all action and no reaction. The AI never got mad at you for taking subversive political action against them, nor did they have any reaction to more neutral/positive votes.
The ACTUAL diplomacy was all done in the same nigh-random tick box dropdown that plagued SR1. Which is to say, was entirely vestigial and likely went completely unused.
The entirety of it's ACTUAL diplomacy system could be boiled down to "are we at war? yes/no" and "are we allied/a protectorate yes/no"
And that is fucking HORRENDOUS.

I mean, I suppose it really only shines in multiplayer, but frankly when you're playing against several other real people you don't actually NEED a diplomacy system, as you all can figure out where you stand on your own.

So yes, congats to Umbra and their team for creating a wonderful system to simulate political fuckery, but DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE claim it's better then other diplomacy systems, don't claim it's better then systems with AI that actually react to what you do and have goals beyond "kill everything not me" and CERTAINLY don't put down those "utterly stagnant, banal" systems, because they ACTUALLY FUCKING SIMULATE RELATIONS BETWEEN FACTIONS, which SR2's system...does not.

[Firgof Umbra]

The AI does get mad at you for flagging down their votes and playing subversive actions against them in SR2.
It also gets happier if you do things for it, like donate resources or cards - or help it pass votes.
It will even get annoyed at you if you constantly ping it with diplomatic requests and begin to ignore diplomacy entirely.

These concerns simply mean less to it than, say, the fact that you share a border or that you have a world inside their Empire's interior.  This is to say they won't go to war with you simply because you flagged down their proposal to move the Galactic Mall to their area of the galaxy; it could however be a contributing factor.  Also they aren't chatty so perhaps you've missed those aspects.

I've only encountered rarely an AI which has a goal other than 'destroy all other civilizations - eventually'.  Even the much celebrated Civ's AI boils down to that simple mission: The AIs want to win the game.  Now, granted, there are much more flavorful interactions with AIs out there - SR2 almost entirely throws out that tub despite having the water to put in it just for the sake of making things fast and easy to do for the player - but most DiploAIs are about as complex as SR2's if you remove the chat-window, forgiving the occasional preprogrammed standouts like GC2 or AIs that forsake winning the game over achieving its objective (a la The Last Federation)

[Firgof Umbra]

Sorry for that.  I like my messages to mean what they say and say what they mean - and this can involve some sussing out sometimes.

[gimli]

So yes, congats to Umbra and their team for creating a wonderful system to simulate political fuckery, but DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE claim it's better then other diplomacy systems, don't claim it's better then systems with AI that actually react to what you do and have goals beyond "kill everything not me" and CERTAINLY don't put down those "utterly stagnant, banal" systems, because they ACTUALLY FUCKING SIMULATE RELATIONS BETWEEN FACTIONS, which SR2's system...does not.

It's a PD game, so we will have the +- modifiers, relationship system & AI reactions in diplomacy for sure. I'm not worried, it will be good. I am only worried about the AI itself...because..yeah.. it is a PD game. 

[BFEL]

snip

Er...sorry I guess?

I seriously never noticed any of that happening in any game of SR2. Would any of that happen to be new? Haven't played in awhile.
So yeah, sorry for snapping at you like that, I get worked up over things...

Also, I've been pretty much using GC2 as a standard, so I should perhaps stop doing that? I mean, I KNOW its good, but is it so good that I should see it as an outlier instead of a data point?

[gimli]

Stellaris Dev Diary #15 - Fallen Empires

"The galaxy is vast, old and unknown. New species constantly flare into existence and some are even able to take their first cautious steps towards other stars. Of those that do some are arrogant enough to assume that they are the first and only chosen. They fail to realize that others may have taken those same steps before them, others who have found amazing wonders and unraveled their secrets, others who reached the furthest edges of knowledge only to crumble away. Those others are called Fallen Empires.

These are once-glorious empires that for unknown reasons have stagnated and often fallen to infighting or crippling apathy. That which once covered hundreds of systems have shrunk to a fraction, barely held on to by superior technology and what little remains of a once glorious fleet. Fallen Empires are isolationist and will look at newer species with disinterest or outright contempt. Diplomatic attempts are futile and they will most likely attack any unknown ships entering one of their remaining systems.

We’ve added Fallen Empires to the game for a couple of reasons. They have the potential to enable some really cool stories and there is a bunch of different directions we can take to ensure players get a different experience from game to game. Players should never feel confident in how a Fallen Empire may react to different events in the galaxy. If left alone they might resurge as a reaction to a galaxy-wide threat or become outraged when their most holy planets are colonized by lesser races.

Gameplay-wise the Fallen Empires can act as a potential source of advanced technology for players willing to invest the military forces required to defeat one of their fleets in battle. In Stellaris, all ships destroyed in combat will leave debris behind and through reverse engineering a player may discover the technologies required to build the weapons and components equipped by those ships. Players can also invade planets belonging to Fallen Empires, allowing them to utilize whatever advanced buildings placed there. This of course means dealing with a new species within the Empire.
While the rewards may be tempting, players may want to consider the risks before attacking a Fallen Empire. Who knows what horrors they have unearthed during the ages, what forbidden secrets their planets hold within, what captives might be unleashed should their wardens be struck down."

DD #16: "Next week the good Goosecreature will be back with a dev diary on the events and mishaps that may befall colonies and their inhabitants."

[umiman]

Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.

[Rolan7]

Beware, Chozo, my Space Pirates will claim your technology!

[Mini]

Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.

I'm not really sure how these would develop naturally, given that they're meant to be an empire that's been around forever and then failed. I guess they would simulate the galaxy for ages before starting the game, but that would take quite a while and would require different mechanics to the standard game (otherwise the galaxy would always fill up with empires that had managed to survive).

[forsaken1111]

Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.

How would that work? These empires are supposed to predate your own. That can't happen if everyone starts when you do.

[Flying Carcass]

Personally I wouldn't mind the occasional still-successful ancient empire blob. I also wouldn't mind the occasional campaign with no ancient empires to be found, the player's civ and its contemporaries being the first to reach the stars. What can I say, I'd like to be surprised with each campaign.

[Zangi]

Hmm... I think I would have preferred it if those kind of things were left to the game to naturally develop, instead of being forcibly created like that.

How would that work? These empires are supposed to predate your own. That can't happen if everyone starts when you do.

The game would need a VAST timescale for something like that to 'naturally' develop.  Even then... by the time that would 'naturally' happen, you would be an ancient civilization too... still kicking around and terrorizing the kids.
Given Distant World's starting settings, you could indeed give some empires a huge boost in territory/size and/or technology... and also mod in an isolationist/non-expansionist race/version of a race to fill in that role(kinda like the machine people...).  That still isn't 'naturally' developed though.

[forsaken1111]

Yea, as cool as it would be to have a billion years of simulated galactic history ala Dwarf Fortress, I think that might be beyond the scope of what they're doing.

[Rolan7]

Perhaps it could optionally be a newgame+ situation.  You "retire" the galaxy, and it simulates the remaining empires as they grow bored.  Populations plummet as they lose interest, and begin abandoning colonies due to ennui (sometimes leaving interesting ruins).  Eventually they're down to a few core stars, spending their time glorifying the old days and waiting for something, anything, interesting to happen.  Watching the new races with scorn and interest.  Perhaps playing a bit of Olympian Chess.

tldr; When you retire a map the empires lose all expansionist drive and become Fallen Empires for your next game.