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[Culise]

Sorry for neglecting HIP; I thought that if CK2+ didn't qualify as major, HIP certainly wouldn't.  That said, in addition to Leyic's comments, Crisis of the Confederation is also hosted on Moddb, and at least two major Vicky 2 mods (/gsg/ and HPM) has very little presence on the Paradox forums at all.  The most Paradox has really done with Steam Workshop is enable it, and while I'm not necessarily fond of Steam workshop, I don't see more options as a bad thing.  Most of their mod-based "DRM" stems from their own forums, not Steam, which is why I was so confused with the assertion that they "actually [disallow] major mods...which means mods that fit on the Steam workshop."

[redwallzyl]

article with some video.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/12/11/stellaris-a-fresh-take-on-the-4x-strategy-genre?%20hub%20page%20%28front%20page%29&utm_content=2

[Cruxador]

Paradox's new policy actually disallows major mods, they only like stuff they directly control, which means mods that fit on the Steam workshop.

The what?  I'm genuinely confused here, because I'm not certain how you yourself define a "major" mod.  I mean, for EU4, you have MEIOU and VeF, both of which massively overhaul significant portions of the game.  For CK2, you have some massive mods: Crisis of the Confederation moves it to space (in the process both requiring and receiving some specialized bug fixes from the devs that could never have affected vanilla due to the lack of female republican succession there); Warhammer, ASOIAF, and Elder Scrolls all transplant it to separate fictional realms with their own special rules and functions (some of which gets pretty complex, such as multiple species in Elder Scrolls); and CK2+ rather rivals such mods as DVIP, MEIOU (in either incarnation), or Magna Mundi.  I mean, something like After The End might not be quite as thorough in its overhaul of mechanics, but a complete transfer of the game from medieval Europe to a post-apocalyptic America is hardly minor, either, and easily matches up with mods like IES or Fantasia Plus.  If these are not major mods, what is?

Other people have already elaborated, but I'd like to add that After the End specifically has been shafted hardest by this, all development is dead now. Which is a damn shame because it's one of very few that added new stuff and did a good job of it without succumbing to bloat.

But yeah; Paradox only lets you host mods on either Steam or their forums. No outside links whatsoever.

'No outside links' is different from saying mods 'can only be hosted on Steam or the forums'. I just did a Google search for "crusader kings 2 elder kings" and the first link is to the mod's moddb.com page which has downloads for that mod as recent as one month ago. Searching moddb for "Europa Universalis IV" turns up 11 mods (though none of the big ones).

Different only in that it's enforceable. It's the difference between saying "you can't do this ever, but we won't enforce it because enforcing it is impossible" and "you can't do this or else you're consigned to irrelevance".

Pretty sure M&T IS on Steam Workshop, just split into a number of sub-mods in order to allow it to be on there.

I haven't checked that particular case, but if it's like Geheimnisnacht, that doesn't actually function and is just an advertisement. Making a broken-up version work is a massive hassle.

[Cruxador]

Different only in that it's enforceable. It's the difference between saying "you can't do this ever, but we won't enforce it because enforcing it is impossible" and "you can't do this or else you're consigned to irrelevance".

That's HARDLY Paradox doing it. They aren't stopping people going to Moddb and downloading things, it's just that the other forms are more convenient and well known

They're effectively stopping people from putting mods on ModDB and on Paradoxforums. Who actually goes to ModDB to find a mod? Who searches every mod site possible to find the mods they wants, when there's a mod forum already extant? The thing about mods is that they grow from communities, and the mod community is on the Paradox forums but can't post mods ONLY on Paradox forums for technical reasons. This is the equivalent of cutting off modding's head, and saying that it doesn't hurt modding because you can still get the mod in theory is like saying you can still hold a conversation with the beheaded man because he still has a mouth and lungs. Yes, all the parts are there, but they need to be connected to function.

[Persus13]

I'm confused. How does hosting mods on the paradox forums prevent major mods?

[Shadowlord]

I see Crisis of the Confederation on Steam Workshop (in multiple parts). Not sure I follow the argument. (I don't understand the instructions, though. They don't seem to say which DLC it supports/uses, unless the answer is virtually none of them.)

[Persus13]

I see Crisis of the Confederation on Steam Workshop (in multiple parts). Not sure I follow the argument. (I don't understand the instructions, though. They don't seem to say which DLC it supports/uses, unless the answer is virtually none of them.)

The majority of the mod is on one part, the rest is music and UI and portrait packs, stuff like that.

Also, what do you mean by the instructions don't say what DLC it supports? It says on the workshop page it strongly recommends Legacy and Republic.

Significant amount of the players of Paradox games never actually register on the forums. Viewing mods on the forums require a registration.

So how does Paradox allowing mods on their website prevent people from acquiring mods, especially when the download page isn't through the forum itself.

[redwallzyl]

your talking nonsense. a mod does not have to be hosted on steam. a mod can only either be on steam or the forum though according to paradox policy but it does not have to be on both. are you referring to the actual download hosting site? paradox does not provide hosting on their own site for mods so modders host their mods in places like mediafire and such. the links for the download just most not be posted somewhere out of the forum like a nexus or moddb type site. the big mods due to their largeness require the mod team to pay for the hosting costs which is what i think your getting at.

they just don't want pirates to get access to mods as a kind of soft DRM sense the mods are ostensibly only accessible through steam which by its nature means you bought the game or the forum which has a verification process. nothings stopping you from trawling the hosting sites themselves if you know how.

i just checked and in fact they added on forum hosting in September.

official mod rules from the EU4 forum:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is the discussion thread for the User Modding rules of PDS Games.

First, We at Paradox love User modding and mods for our games and want to encourage you to do so, we see benefits for everyone involved.
In the past there has been some confusion about the rules concerning user mods, in an effort to provide a clear understanding, the rules are formalized here.
These may be updated as needs and circumstances arise and through exchanges and dialog with you, our valued modders.

Below are the rules you must follow if you want to Mention/Discuss/Plan or otherwise Market your User mod on our forums and or list it in the steam Workshop.

1) The User Mod may not have an external public forum, they can have one for their internal development use but not disclosed to the general membership here, nor allowing them to join.
2) User Mod files should be hosted on a file share site designed for use by the public (if they know the specific address) and or Steam Workshop.
3) The User Mod will not distribute the EXE file.
4) The User Mod may not claim ANY kind of license or copyright of any kind (You can still have Credits).
5) The User Mod should respect the work of other modders and not include any work without the consent of that modder.
6) The User Mod should not include 3rd party copyright material, without permission of the copyright holder.
7) No material from one Paradox IP(Game or DLC, includes any content in them) may be used in a user mod, unless that user mod can assure only people with that other Paradox IP installed can use it. If doing that is beyond the technical ability of the particular mod maker or it is impossible then they cannot be used.
You may not charge to buy the mod or charge fees of any kind.
9) You may not solicit directly or indirectly donation in any form.
10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop.

Violations: If you feel that a user mod is violating one of these rules, please alert a Moderator and never bring it up publicly, leave that to the staff. Starting an argument or confronting the mod creator directly can result in unfriendly behavior and may result in both parties being warned or infracted, we do not want members getting into arguments about it Especially for Rule 5.

Once your User Mod has grown to the point where you feel you need more than one thread to discuss it, you can ask a Moderator that your main thread be stuck to the top of the forum and can use the first post of that thread to act as an index to the other related threads of your Mod.
Once you feel You have too many threads and posts to manage in that way, you can ask a Moderator to sponsor your mod and they can apply to an Administrator for your own sub forum.

It is important to note that we support modders and want you to succeed, follow the rules as outlined above and we will support you as fully as we are able.

[Leyic]

The Game of Thrones mod for CK2 is hosted on moddb.com as an .exe file and has a comments thread there. That's at least three two violations of the quoted rules. What is Paradox doing about it?

Also note that the rules state "Below are the rules you must follow if you want to Mention/Discuss/Plan or otherwise Market your User mod on our forums and or list it in the steam Workshop." (Emphasis mine.) This means that the rules are completely invalid for any mod developer who stays exclusively on third-party sites, not that the rules are enforced. It also doesn't apply in case the mod's fans are the ones putting it up on third party sites.

Edit: Having thought about it, the .exe rule probably means not to distribute the game .exe, not that the mod can't be packed as an .exe. Still, that's at least two rules violations, including the big "don't host outside Paradox/Steam" that has everyone in a huff.

[Retropunch]

My only worry is that with a space game (with procedural races/planets/etc), the only thing you can really add is more functionality (unlike CK2/EU where you can add more land/history). This means that DLC can only really be more functionality, but if they open it up to modders then they run the risk that modders develop the stuff they would put in DLC.

Whilst many other games run this risk, Paradox are very DLC dependant, so it's a lot riskier for them. I doubt they'll block mods completely, but there may be a shift in how they think of them!

[scriver]

The Game of Thrones mod for CK2 is hosted on moddb.com as an .exe file and has a comments thread there. That's at least three two violations of the quoted rules. What is Paradox doing about it?

I would hazard a guess that the .exe file entry refers to the ParadoxGame.exe file, not any .exe file. I'm also not sure a comments thread would count, and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation. However, the GoTmod does have an external forum though, to which the only "punishment" is that they are forbidden from linking to on the Paradox forums. So yeah, they're violenting the rules and are still allowed to hang around in the Paradox club house.

[Leyic]

...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...

You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?

"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."

So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.

[Retropunch]

...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...

You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?

"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."

So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.

This is because as the prefix for all these rules there is this:
Below are the rules you must follow if you want to Mention/Discuss/Plan or otherwise Market your User mod on our forums and or list it in the steam Workshop.

So if you just want to have it up on moddb that's fine, it's just if you want to use their official forums or the SW. I find that acceptable, because paradox has to pay for both of those services, so they're allowed to charge for it.

[sambojin]

Cruxador... Are you.... Are you me?

When I get old or bitter or drunk?

Or are you, you? Or one of our normal bay12ers under a different name? You seem familiar......

[scriver]

...and hosting on moddb.com is not a violation...

You did read all of those rules, right? Particularly #10?

"10) The Mod should be exclusive to the members of this forum and or Steam workshop."

So putting the mod up anywhere other than Paradox or Steam violates the exclusivity. And yet there it is, seemingly unhindered by Paradox, despite what certain people are saying.

Paradox does not themselves offer hosting, hence:

2) User Mod files should be hosted on a file share site designed for use by the public (if they know the specific address) and or Steam Workshop.

Is moddb.com different from any other file hosting sites in this regard in any way I am not aware of? Because otherwise there is no violation.