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Author Topic: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE  (Read 1740008 times)

Trekkin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5580 on: November 30, 2017, 07:42:59 pm »

...in the endless expanse of the void.

This is a really bad counterpoint, in my opinion.  Space may be endless, but the area a battle is waged within is not.  Seriously, think about the battles in Stellaris, you have tons of ships snaking around each other in a fairly confined area, and in those situations, the larger fleet has to worry more about losing their own ships to friendly-fire compared to the smaller fleet.  That's probably what is being simulated with the bonus.

Except that everything in Stellaris is wildly not to scale, either in distance or in size, so what we see of the battles is meaningless.
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umiman

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5581 on: November 30, 2017, 07:43:44 pm »

Most strategy games try to at least have some semblance of reality in order to avoid breaking the immersion of the player or just making the player just go "quoi?".

For example, they might be able to simulate smaller forces being able to have an advantage through strategy, terrain, tactics, genius, or deus ex machina. Technological advantages, godly intervention, godzilla, so on and so forth.

Stellaris decides that in the face of all these options, the million things it could have done to try and help a smaller force achieve victory despite the odds. Something it has done successfully in its own games before such as in CK2 where a good general, troop selection, and proper terrain can overcome huge numbers.

Paradox decided,

LOL THEY GET BONUS TO FIRE RATE BASED ON ENEMY FLEET SIZE. BECAUSE I DUNNO THEIR TROOPS ARE MORE SCARED OR SOMETHING SO THEY JUST SHOOT FASTER LMAO.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Trekkin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5582 on: November 30, 2017, 07:57:27 pm »

I'm just waiting for Wiz to explain how everyone complaining about it is a racist or something.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5583 on: November 30, 2017, 08:24:57 pm »

This is a really bad counterpoint, in my opinion.  Space may be endless, but the area a battle is waged within is not.  Seriously, think about the battles in Stellaris, you have tons of ships snaking around each other in a fairly confined area, and in those situations, the larger fleet has to worry more about losing their own ships to friendly-fire compared to the smaller fleet.  That's probably what is being simulated with the bonus.
Thinking about the battles in Stellaris simply adds to greater disappointment. Space is endless and the area a Stellaris battle is waged in is this clusterfuck of corvettes simply because that's how the game is designed, not because it must by this concentrated mess. That the logic has to be fit to Stellaris and Stellaris not fit to logic illustrates my point; it is entirely artificial that this must be the only way because it is how the developers want it to be. Considering how even the densest conglomeration of fighters, corvettes and prethoryn do not at all have a single semblance of collision or friendly fire, it seems odd to justify this arbitrary measure by these grounds. For example, a bunch of swarmvettes assaulting a numerically inferior group of battleships would see the battleships gaining the fire rate bonus, despite the battleships in such a scenario being at the greater risk of shooting each other, with the swarmvettes attacking in between all the battleships. Furthermore if we ran on the assumption that the vast expanse of space could not be used, because Stellaris only runs on 2 dimensions and the scale is terribly small, why then is it that it is not the fleet who has better admirals, better training and better computers which prevents friendly fire, but simply the one which has fewer ships? Is the largest, most experienced, best train and best equipped Navy unable to stop itself from shooting itself to such an extent that it drastically alters the course of battle? Why do the ships even bother with formations if they are apparently so inept?
Could you imagine arguing that a game simulating ocean battles on Earth should have superior navies sink their own ships because the space of the ocean battle was small and experience, discipline, formation and navigation would count for nothing? That one could expect to see the Royal Navy defeated if it made the mistake of building more ships? If such men could avoid destroying their own ships in closer enemy engagements and much less space than the literal endless void, why is it that no matter how militiaristic and experience a space navy is, they cannot avoid incurring such penalties against smaller foes?
It is simply because it is an arbitrary measure meant to punish the building of large armadas in space.

I have to wonder where people seem to be getting the impression that the bonus means that the smaller fleets will be the ones winning the battles.  Far as I can tell, the bonus is going to be scaled depending upon comparative fleet sizes.  And taking the example they gave, the fleet that has 50% the strength of the other will be getting only a bonus of half their own strength (not the enemy's strength), meaning they are acting closer to a 75% rather than the original 50%.  That's still quite a bit weaker than the enemy fleet, so the smaller would still be likely to lose.  It's just now they'd be inflicting some casualties upon the greater force rather than nothing/basically nothing.
Why is an inferior force increasing its fighting capabilities the weaker its strategic position is.
There is no logic behind the weaker force fighting the far larger force in a conventional battle and inflicting such disproportionate casualties, the chance of them winning should not even be "likely to lose," it should be "almost certainly going to lose." I can't think of any strategy game that rewarded you for fighting on your opponent's strengths in this manner. For a grand strategy game it's even more puzzling, because the game is not about the fine managing of units, it's about amassing the resources and making the decisions which make the chances of victory certain before you've even declared war.

Right now militarily weaker states can use federations & defensive pacts to stall greater powers until such time as their economic and technological might overpowers them. But they possess no other means of fighting asymmetrical warfare short of funding a rival's enemies. This is a major weakness of the game, and I think the fact that the developers removed the ability to transfer planets because players were making locust pops is evidence enough that the devs are not only disinterested in adding asymmetrical avenues for undermining rivals, but is actively opposed to it for whatever reasons they keep to themselves. Thus in order to "solve" the problem that a militarily overwhelming foe annihilates its opponents in conventional battles, these measures have been introduced.
Thus I can play a pacifist nation that abhors violence and does not train its admirals or fleet, my tradition points spent on harmony, prosperity and discovery. My technology and economy is superior to my militiarist neighbour who spends much more on defence and devotes more of their planet to industry than me. If they do not challenge me militarily, I will assuredly become superior to them with the passing of time, as my technological and economic advantage increases exponentially. They double their fleet to twice the size of mine, putting an immense strain further upon their state, planning to invade me and thus reduce my advantage to their gain.
They declare war.
They have twice the ships I do, their admirals are more skilled, their people are geared towards war in tradition, having completed the supremacy traditions and naval exercise training. This is not their first war either, so they possess many veterans. My admirals have never seen battle before, my people hate the very idea of violence, their one advantage is they will fight harder to defend their homelands. I do no clever strategy, no devious trick. I do not conceal my ships in a great galactic ambush, I do not call in allies, I do not deploy devious weapons or politics, subversion or fast-raids. I attack this overwhelmingly superior foe head on in a conventional battle. Every one of my ships fights with superior skill and strategy, exacting a terrible toll upon the enemy. My species have no idea what they're doing but for reasons unknown they are superior to even the most elite enemy veterans. We are evenly matched, but I am far more capable of replacing my losses, with better industry, with more and more technologically advanced ships. I will win this war despite having made no preparations for it.
It breaks the game's verisimilitude for me. I do not see a mechanic which is logical or in accordance with any reality, I just see a mechanic the devs put in because they don't like large fleets causing decisive battles in space and couldn't think of anything better.

Consider that a fanatic militiarist government is one that is built around war first and foremost, whose peoples prepare for war in peace and look forward to it as an inevitable tradition of their species that must be continued. They get +20% to fire rate to represent their skill and experience at war. Consider that the fanatic purifier government represents the utmost extreme of a martial society, a peoples whose purpose in life is foremost war and extermination of all other life. Their dedication to this extreme militiarism renders them incapable of forming any diplomatic ties, but each of their ships gets +53% to fire rate.
An enemy whose peoples are not at all trained at war but are outnumbered 2 to 1 will find their ships fighting just as well as the enemy which spends entire generations of lives practicing at nothing but war. Not because they made any strategic decision, or had superior leadership, or the proper preparations. They are outnumbered therefore they fight as good as the best-trained elite navies in the galaxy.

Now imagine a fanatic purifier government is being invaded by a federation which has banded together to stop their extermination wars. Unfortunately they overwhelmingly outnumber the fanatical purifiers, so now if they fight a conventional battle their enemy will have a +103% fire rate. Thus to band together and have one fleet lead all allied fleets would be to make an incredibly poor life choice, despite all logic pointing to the contrary.

forsaken1111

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5584 on: November 30, 2017, 08:43:22 pm »

The bonus isn't going to make an interior force WIN, it's just there to make the battle slightly less one-sided. His example was of an 80k force attacking a 10k force. Normally this would result in a wipe off the 10k force with a loss of maybe 500 power on the 80k force. With the bonus it might turn out as still a work of the 10k force but a loss of like 2000 power to the 80k force, allowing a smaller interior force to at least inflict some damage as they die to overwhelming numbers.
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Greiger

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5585 on: November 30, 2017, 08:49:43 pm »

I like the disengage mechanic so far.  I assume that they are not going to be sitting there doing a timeout and are going to be actually disengaging, attempting to get out of range of any enemy weapons as quickly as possible.  I'm pretty sure there is a modded in computer upgrade that does that, the ship simply tries to physically disengage changing it's AI to evasive, it simply attempts to move out of range of enemy ships and maintain that distance while hopefully other ships in the fleet fight.

You don't need a new fleet for that, just the same as you can have ships that are set to bombard from range and ships that swarm in the same fleet.  When the ships hit 50% and decide to bug out they simply change their AI engage distance to some reasonably high number, and the ship will just turn around and attempt to physically get away, it can still get shot while backing off, and depending on the range of your enemy's weapons, may not be able to escape. It's as simple as just changing the ship's AI mid combat which I think mods can already do.  If all ships remaining in combat are all in disengage AI it simply triggers emergency warp for you.  Do I know paradox is going to do it that way? No.  But it seems reasonable, and seemingly not beyond even current modding capability.

---

Upping fire speed against larger groups, seems a little silly.  Maybe as a admiral trait it could work with the explanation they gave, but it does not make sense baseline, sure there may be more targets to shoot at, but there would be more targets in a bigger more even engagement as well, yet there is no benefit there.  An argument could be made for friendly fire, but then why is there no fire rate increase for the start of the battle when everybody is still in formation and firing anywhere vaguely straight ahead is going to hit an enemy?  The fire rate would make for 1 or 2 extra hits, that are likely just going to hit shields, or be cleared with autorepair traits or tech, which seems entirely too easy to get.

You'd better simulate this with a chance of a missed shot hitting another member of large enemy fleets than a fire rate increase.  Same almost nonexistent handicap advantage, better explanation.  Or hell just make all missed shots when in combat have a chance of hitting any ship within a cone around the the target.  Larger fleets will still be disadvantaged, since they have more ships and a better chance of being in that cone, and it gives a point to swarm AI because you can make fast evasive ships charge the enemy formation in hopes of making them hit eachother as they try to hit the evasive little fleas.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 08:57:42 pm by Greiger »
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umiman

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5586 on: November 30, 2017, 08:51:43 pm »

The bonus isn't going to make an interior force WIN, it's just there to make the battle slightly less one-sided. His example was of an 80k force attacking a 10k force. Normally this would result in a wipe off the 10k force with a loss of maybe 500 power on the 80k force. With the bonus it might turn out as still a work of the 10k force but a loss of like 2000 power to the 80k force, allowing a smaller interior force to at least inflict some damage as they die to overwhelming numbers.
Everyone here understands the intention. The problem is their solution makes no goddamn sense. Why do these ships magically have the ability to shoot faster when outnumbered? If these races were capable of such a feat, why do they not just build all their ships with the maximum rate of fire? It's completely dumb and reeks of "we have no idea what we're doing". Which is not surprising, considering the game.

Imagine like, EU4 right. Napoleon vs Wellington at the battle of Dagobah.

Napoleon is outnumbered almost 2 to 1. He doesn't stand a chance.

Wellington and his comrades are in a position of total superiority. There is no way this dastardly Corsican is getting away this time. 118,000 rifles and cannons against some paltry 73,000. How can they win?

Napoleon is happy though, because suddenly his phasers are now turbocannons, and his troops jump into the enemy lines rambo style with their m60s, obliterating the coalition forces. Pffft, they dared to outnumber him. Little did they know Jesus's 4th law of physics. "If Thouest Art Outnumbered Twoeth To Oneth, Thoueth Shall Geteth Doubleth Firepowereth."


------

I'm not too sure why I'm getting so worked up over this. I wrote this game off so long ago and basically just treat it like a curio these days. Meh, let them do whatever.

Trekkin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5587 on: November 30, 2017, 09:03:16 pm »

I'm not too sure why I'm getting so worked up over this. I wrote this game off so long ago and basically just treat it like a curio these days. Meh, let them do whatever.

Maybe because they just keep finding new ways to be ridiculous?

Just wait. When this fails to eliminate doomstacks, they'll implement a friendly fire mechanic with damage scaling by fleet size. Then they'll decide people are using battleships too much and quintuple their cost. Then people won't be using battleships enough, so corvettes will get a random chance per warp jump of getting lost forever. Except in sectors. For some reason.

They want so badly to respond to the meta that they've forgotten to step back and actually advance a coherent idea of how they want their game to work, so they just vacillate from one extreme to another in an attempt to please whoever was mad last.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5588 on: November 30, 2017, 09:32:05 pm »

The bonus isn't going to make an interior force WIN, it's just there to make the battle slightly less one-sided. His example was of an 80k force attacking a 10k force. Normally this would result in a wipe off the 10k force with a loss of maybe 500 power on the 80k force. With the bonus it might turn out as still a work of the 10k force but a loss of like 2000 power to the 80k force, allowing a smaller interior force to at least inflict some damage as they die to overwhelming numbers.
How are you getting the impression that I believe or even care about who wins the battles? You yourself have identified the issue. An inferior force fighting an overwhelmingly superior foe does not inflict significant casualties upon it. This was not a problem that needed fixing. It is the very principle which I have been attacking. As an aside, the way fleet power is calculated weighting effective health * DPS will simply increase the problems the game already faces regarding the sheer counter-productiveness of large ships. Hence why 50k of corvettes fighting 100k of battleships is already superior, but will now be firing all of their weapons 50% faster despite being more durable, accurate and having more DPS.
That's bad enough but no, this is just inherently bad regardless of the errors in fleet force power calculations. Let us assume that 800 corvette strong force and 100 corvette strong force have identical technology, leaders, traditions, ship design and composition. For every 1 corvette the inferior force has, 8 other ships are firing at it. For every 300 shots its side fires, it receives 2400 shots in return. Because the first side was capable of bringing overwhelming force, they were more quickly able to subdue the enemy and so minimize their casualties. They are more capable of reducing the time the enemy spends firing guns at their friends. The second side should never have engaged this far larger foe in a conventional battle.

Now let's say the identical matchup happens again, but it's 700 corvettes fighting 800 corvettes in the standard game. For every 2100 shots the first side give, the enemy sends 2400. It is clear the first side will lose. They should have picked a more favourable battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens, but it's now 700 corvettes advancing upon 800 corvettes, but the 700 is split into two armies. One is made up of 400 corvettes, the other is made up of 300 corvettes. The larger force attacks the 400 corvettes, seizing the opportunity presented! Oh wait nope, they committed a great error by attacking the divided enemy. The outnumbered enemy are now super 1337 hax0r who fire good because they are outnumbered. The smaller force is now firing 1800 shots for the enemy's 2400, despite being outnumbered 2 to 1. If the 300 arrive and receive no outnumbered bonus they'll be adding 900 shots per whatever the enemy has left, and 1350 if they're outnumbered by twice as many. Thus the outnumbered fleet is now delivering anywhere between 2700-3150 shots for the enemy's 2400 despite having done anything to warrant such superior damage output.

It does not make any common sense why putting your navy in graver danger makes each individual ship fight as hard as the fanatical purifiers. And again, to bring up the topic of fanatical purifiers, 1 on 1 their +53% fire rate makes them superior to any equal. Their weakness is that they can't make allies, but their enemies can. Under such a system however, outnumbering fanatical purifiers will see each of their ships firing more than twice as fast as any of your ships.

Rolan7

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5589 on: November 30, 2017, 09:40:18 pm »

I think this can be cool as long as the advantage is slight.  800 vs 700 should still usually go to the 800, just not as inexpensively.  So mid-war production is more relevant, instead of just the size of your standing doomstack.  And there's a mechanical reason to split your forces (which is particularly necessary with the Hyperlane-only change, which makes doomstacks even more efficient).

Realism-wise I'm suspending my disbelief.  The ships already engage in sea-formations, and the smallest are the size of Pluto.

It's not like Space Napoleon is going to win the battle with half as much fleet power...  Well, I hope :P
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Trekkin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5590 on: November 30, 2017, 10:34:12 pm »

Would it be any better if DPS didn't scale linearly with fleet size, so a fleet with twice as many ships as another had less than double the lesser fleet's DPS? I could see an extremely tenuous argument made that, at least for the kind of fighting Stellaris is trying to represent, the set of optimal firing positions for a given array of enemy ships could be filled by a fleet of comparable size, relegating the excess ships to suboptimal positions and so diminishing their effective firepower. It's stupid, but it's less stupid than outnumbered gunners shooting faster and still discourages doomstacks; more importantly, a fleet's effective firepower wouldn't vary according to the size of its foe.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 10:37:07 pm by Trekkin »
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Culise

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5591 on: November 30, 2017, 11:26:53 pm »

I think this can be cool as long as the advantage is slight.  800 vs 700 should still usually go to the 800, just not as inexpensively.  So mid-war production is more relevant, instead of just the size of your standing doomstack.  And there's a mechanical reason to split your forces (which is particularly necessary with the Hyperlane-only change, which makes doomstacks even more efficient).

Realism-wise I'm suspending my disbelief.  The ships already engage in sea-formations, and the smallest are the size of Pluto.

It's not like Space Napoleon is going to win the battle with half as much fleet power...  Well, I hope :P
Indeed.  Regarding this half of the dev diary, I think it'll be best to wait and actually see how it balances out.  It does feel to me a bit like a bit of a kludge where they're taking a wrench to a nail, but I'm not about to panic completely.  The sole datum we have on it right now also does not take internal balancing into account yet, which will be continuing for the next couple months, and it only tells us that maybe, if you're outnumbered by a factor of 100, you might be able to be twice as effective as you would ordinarily be.  To wit, the screenshot says that a single ship with 0.1k fleet power against a 13.9k fleet power gets a bonus of 97% from fleet disparity combat bonus, making it an effective 0.2k fleet against a 13.9k fleet.
Though it does remind me of the old quote I can't remember the source of: "Surrounded? We've got 'em right where we want 'em!"
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 11:30:37 pm by Culise »
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5592 on: November 30, 2017, 11:46:57 pm »

Now let's say the identical matchup happens again, but it's 700 corvettes fighting 800 corvettes in the standard game. For every 2100 shots the first side give, the enemy sends 2400. It is clear the first side will lose. They should have picked a more favourable battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens, but it's now 700 corvettes advancing upon 800 corvettes, but the 700 is split into two armies. One is made up of 400 corvettes, the other is made up of 300 corvettes. The larger force attacks the 400 corvettes, seizing the opportunity presented! Oh wait nope, they committed a great error by attacking the divided enemy. The outnumbered enemy are now super 1337 hax0r who fire good because they are outnumbered. The smaller force is now firing 1800 shots for the enemy's 2400, despite being outnumbered 2 to 1. If the 300 arrive and receive no outnumbered bonus they'll be adding 900 shots per whatever the enemy has left, and 1350 if they're outnumbered by twice as many. Thus the outnumbered fleet is now delivering anywhere between 2700-3150 shots for the enemy's 2400 despite having done anything to warrant such superior damage output.

Why would the original keep the outnumbered bonus as it was before reinforcements arrived and not update to one more befitting the new situation?
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5593 on: December 01, 2017, 12:16:45 am »

Now let's say the identical matchup happens again, but it's 700 corvettes fighting 800 corvettes in the standard game. For every 2100 shots the first side give, the enemy sends 2400. It is clear the first side will lose. They should have picked a more favourable battle.
Now let's say the identical matchup happens, but it's now 700 corvettes advancing upon 800 corvettes, but the 700 is split into two armies. One is made up of 400 corvettes, the other is made up of 300 corvettes. The larger force attacks the 400 corvettes, seizing the opportunity presented! Oh wait nope, they committed a great error by attacking the divided enemy. The outnumbered enemy are now super 1337 hax0r who fire good because they are outnumbered. The smaller force is now firing 1800 shots for the enemy's 2400, despite being outnumbered 2 to 1. If the 300 arrive and receive no outnumbered bonus they'll be adding 900 shots per whatever the enemy has left, and 1350 if they're outnumbered by twice as many. Thus the outnumbered fleet is now delivering anywhere between 2700-3150 shots for the enemy's 2400 despite having done anything to warrant such superior damage output.

Why would the original keep the outnumbered bonus as it was before reinforcements arrived and not update to one more befitting the new situation?
Because otherwise how would you cheese the system by engaging with one corvette and then immediately reinforcing with a 103k fleetpower doomstack to make them all fire at doublespeed?
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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #5594 on: December 01, 2017, 01:04:19 am »

The outnumbered bonus is calculated on the total amount of fleet power/ships in the battle, not per fleet.
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