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Author Topic: Arms Race, OOC [Completed] Now with Arms Race III, against another forum!  (Read 234816 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #555 on: August 03, 2015, 04:00:08 am »

Quote
prototype RPG rounds super earlier in the game as part of another design action all together, so personally I'm not seeing the problem...
To be honest, we wanted a mortar, which already existed at the time.

Quote
Also how does a Recoilless Rifle (Or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) count as an artillery weapon? It's more like a rocket then anything else,

Well, it isn't. A recoilless rifle is a gun which shoots forwards and backwards, in a single explosion, not the continuous arceleration of a rocket. In practice, this tremendously reduces the muzzle velocity, which should, especially with the explosives of this time, result in a weapon with short range and significant drop-off, making it extremely hard to aim at anyone further than point blank range.
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Andres

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #556 on: August 03, 2015, 04:03:06 am »

(effectively, it had a long reload time and even a horse could only carry a couple shots).
Hold on, it needs a horse just to carry two shots!? How in the bloody hell is it even usable in the Mountains!? It would've made some amount of sense if it was 1/4 in Arstotzka's favour, but if horses can now cross the Mountains then why not motorbikes? Why not trucks or armoured cars?

My second problem -
I totally support ahistorical developments, they are what makes such games fun. but... It is one thing when country that spent many design actions on small arms is capable to do and early SMG on a lucky roll, and other thing when country that has no artillery experience (one design and revision for weak howitzer+1 revision of shells) designs an advanced artillery piece without any drawbacks. They have no tools, no engineers, no experience, no necessary technologies.
Holy crap you're right. This RR just keeps finding new ways to be impossible.

Also how does a Recoilless Rifle (Or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) count as an artillery weapon?
It fires an exploding charge and blows up our bunkers.

you guys got prototype RPG rounds super earlier in the game as part of another design action all together
Mortars work on somewhat similar principles as RPGs.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 04:39:34 am by Andres »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #557 on: August 03, 2015, 04:10:00 am »

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Mortars work on somewhat similar principles as RPGs.

Not quite. A mortar is merely a 2 side explosive. One blasts it out of it's barrel, the other explodes when it hits the target.

The recoilless rifle is simple, but instead of blasting against the barrel, it blasts against another mass which is launched in the other direction, thus wasting a large part of it's energy.

I noticed an error: The Moskburgian plane is considered to be cheap. However, it includes a radio, which is expensive. Thus it should be expensive.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 04:15:04 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Sensei

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #558 on: August 03, 2015, 05:22:40 am »

Man, you Arstotzkans can get awfully salty for someone who's got a foothold in their enemy's homeland. Any time things don't go according to plan or Moskurg gets an advantage you seem really confident it must mean I've messed up.  ;)

I'd like the balance discussion to be ongoing, and it will probably have gone on for a while while I'm writing this turn, but for now, here is what I'm doing:

-If weapons CAN be built, they can be built by you. No penalty for magical foreknowledge of a weapon's tactical value. My main problem with this is actually that you already know what's conventionally effective(See: Wiki Reading) and it's not likely you'll try the weird stuff, but I can't think of a better way to administrate it.

-Extra spies replaced with Espionage Credits. Arstotzka gets an Espionage Credit for enduring the Tiger Terror.

-Going to do resource prices the logical way. New stuff going forward might have a bit higher base cost though.

-Tiny revisions and tactical improvements for free will be a thing. I'm calling them Orders, and the rule is that if it's an engineering improvement a soldier can do in the field, it will just happen. At least, if it doesn't contradict High Command.

-Moskurg will get .60 Incendiary rounds when they move past beverage-based incendiary technology. Smoke and fragmentation rounds are of course not available in this caliber.

-Moskurg RR might get less portable or range reduction, still thinking about it, would also like to hear from more Moskurgs. I'm not convinced it's a monstrosity that shouldn't exist but either of those changes would hurt it significantly, and are probably sensible.

(effectively, it had a long reload time and even a horse could only carry a couple shots).
Hold on, it needs a horse just to carry two shots? How in the bloody hell is it even usable in the Mountains!? It would've made some amount of sense if it was 1/4 in Arstotzka's favour, but if horses can now cross the Mountains then why not motorbikes? Why not trucks?
I've stated before, mountains are not accessible by wheeled vehicles, and a single RR is man portable.

1923 Battle Report:

Arstotzka's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Moskurg's army now contains the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This year, both nations introduced new planes. The Arstotzkan AS-DB-HF-23 is built almost entirely out of Aluminium and three hyphens. It is a fighter-bomber designed for dive bombing, it's fast and maneuverable, at least when not carrying bombs. It had a radial engine and an autocannon that fires through the prop shaft, and is a low-winged monoplane. It's Expensive. Moskurg designed the M3 Wasp, a dedicated interceptor made out of wood but with Aluminum reinforcement to allow a cantilever wing design. It's armed with a Stallion, and its huge engine allows for it to go fast but its wooden structures are unstable at full speed. It's also Expensive, but Moskurg spent an expense credit on it this year. Arstotzka finally sorted out their uniform situation, convincing High Command to remove the little flags in exchange for the inner face of the suit being red and and gold. Moskurg designed the model 3 radio, portable by a mere two people, and on foot! This will benefit their vehicles mostly.

The war in the air is rapidly changing due to Aluminium, and the construction of metal planes. Arstotzka's industry has allowed them to build a fully metal airplane, the AS-DB-HF-23, which is meant to be a dive bomber and heavy fighter. These are Expensive, while Moskurg's partially aluminum gas guzzler the M3 Wasp is cheap this year. There are a few Model 1 biplanes as well, which are maneuverable, but just outpaced in dogfights by the new planes. M3 Wasps are the fastest things in the sky, but a little unstable- their wooden structure is vulnerable to Arstotzkan autocannons. The Wasp pretty much spells doom for AS-19C's, which can't keep up. Despite the speed advantage, M3 Wasps generally lose to sturdier and more stable AS-DB's, IF the DB's aren't carrying bombs. This leads Arstotzka to launch squads in which some DBs carry bombs and some don't, as escorts. M2 Hornets can no longer keep up with DB's, and neither can M1 Biplanes, so they depend on Wasps for cover to do their thing. Superior numbers on the Moskurg side compared to full Aluminium on the Arstotzkan side make it about an even fight, both sides periodically succeed in having superiority to attack ground targets. The AS-DB-HF-23 is rather effective against ground targets, and less vulnerable to Brumby fire due to its sturdy structure (Stallions of course will still cause problems.)

In the desert, both sides now have similar bombing capabilites. Armor remains dangerously vulnerable to night bombing, but it happens to Moskurg groups about as often as it happens to Arstotzkan ones. Moskurg uses their new audio radios to good advantage, coordinating their troop movements with greater efficiency. Good use of tactics means that Moskurg troops often outnumber Arstotzkan ones, but the AS-MV21 remains a thing of terror, which moves quickly, kills quickly, and is vulnerable mainly to innaccurate, slow Bombardiers and controversial Rhino Recoilless Rifles. When Arstotzkan armored cars DO get hit by Rhinos, any survivors in the crew get really angry about it. Motorcycle assaults continue to be a high-casualty affair, as do horse-mounted ones, though the portable machine guns on Arstotzkan motorcycles still typically have the advantage. The Arstotzkan advance stalls in the face of unusually well-organized troop movements, bombing and artillery. (Arstotzka 2/4, Moskurg 2/4)

In the mountains, Moskurg troops have now encountered Arstotzkan mines. Arstotzka gets some good use out of their armored cars, artillery and mortars to defend themselves, and now generally has the benefit of machine guns as well. Camouflaged troops make ambushes use AS-F14 and Nosin rifles, and generally outgun Model 1 riflemen, and will even kill squads that outnumber them if they manage to get the Brumby users first. The Moskurg advance stalls (Moskurg 3/4). On the north side of the mountains, new metal dive bombers assault Moskurg trains. The tactic is terribly effective, when a good number of Arstotzkan planes do get that fire while still carrying bombs. The tracks themselves are vulnerable as well, and some of the slack is picked up by Tiger logistics trucks.

In the jungle, Arstotzka makes especially good use of their new camouflage. While they lack CQC ability, they use ambush tactics to pick their own engagement range. Superior Arstotzkan rifle use, with the benefit of semi-automatic AS-F14's where needed, is valuable. AS-MV-21's continue to be ambushed by RR's enough that Arsotzkan troops no longer use them as vanguard units, sending infantry to scout instead and saving their armor for fortifications. This is a reasonably effective tactic, and scouting is again helped by camouflage. Arstotzka gains ground (2/2).

In the capitols, rebellion continues. Rebels light fires and disappear into the darkness. Executions of anyone suspected of rebellious behavior, perplexingly, only seem to make it worse. Both nations will suffer -1 oil next turn due to arson on their industries.

A German engineer, who insists that he is NOT in Forenia if anyone asks, is interested in learning about your weapons technology. He is willing to share some of his notes. The nation to submit the best picture of a piece of equipment, be it small arms, armor, plane, boat or whatever, will receive one Design Credit. Submissions are wide open. Pictures drawn/otherwise created by you only, please, not photos grabbed off of Google.

1924 begins.
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Happerry

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #559 on: August 03, 2015, 05:29:52 am »

So how are Moskurg shrapnel shells doing against aircraft? They might not be specifically designed for anti air, but they were described as basically being a shotgun shell, so I'd think with proper use they could do some damage.
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Andres

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #560 on: August 03, 2015, 05:40:00 am »

So how are Moskurg shrapnel shells doing against aircraft? They might not be specifically designed for anti air, but they were described as basically being a shotgun shell, so I'd think with proper use they could do some damage.
Get good, Moskurg. Arstotzka-made Artillery A is more accurate, has a faster rate of fire, and uses proper flak shells to defeat inferior Moskurg planes.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Sensei

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #561 on: August 03, 2015, 05:48:25 am »

So how are Moskurg shrapnel shells doing against aircraft? They might not be specifically designed for anti air, but they were described as basically being a shotgun shell, so I'd think with proper use they could do some damage.
Largely, they are just effective against infantry. They don't have the precise, adjustable fuze timing to operate as impromptu flak shells.
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evilcherry

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #562 on: August 03, 2015, 05:50:08 am »

A few observations:

- ore is just much less valuable than oil on a per unit basis. You can never properly design anything that can actually use 4 oil without an ore cost, but not the other way round (I feel steam tanks are a way to cheat the oil cost).
- I can't fathom how camo is more effective as a force multiplier than radio, either.
- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.
- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
- Maybe its bad play on our part but the T-1 should no longer be lumbering at 10 km/h.

Andres

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #563 on: August 03, 2015, 05:52:49 am »

I've stated before, mountains are not accessible by wheeled vehicles, and a single RR is man portable.
Ah, thought our motorbikes could go wherever our horses could go. Does this mean we need to build mechs?

- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.
Our armoured cars are thicker and made of better metal than your armoured cars. Medium armour on the front and Light everywhere else. The only reason our T15 hasn't been replaced is that it's armed with an artillery piece.

EDIT: That's before we get into shaping.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 05:55:20 am by Andres »
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Sensei

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #564 on: August 03, 2015, 05:58:19 am »

A few observations:

- ore is just much less valuable than oil on a per unit basis. You can never properly design anything that can actually use 4 oil without an ore cost, but not the other way round (I feel steam tanks are a way to cheat the oil cost).
- I can't fathom how camo is more effective as a force multiplier than radio, either.
- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.
- If you can properly nerf the MV21-AL, then we can talk about nerfing the Recoilless rifle.
- Maybe its bad play on our part but the T-1 should no longer be lumbering at 10 km/h.
-This might change as engines get bigger and faster. We haven't had anything resembling modern tank engines or full sized bombers yet. Steam tanks were blatantly a way to avoid oil costs, they had appropriate drawbacks.
-The radio is most valuable where there's a lot of mixed armor movement, and bombing and artillery, which are less important in the jungle. Also, camo in the jungle is kind of a basic thing.
-RR's are not terribly accurate and won't survive missing their first shot, usually. They also need people dedicated to them, someone generally won't have an RR and a horsekiller as well.
-MV21 is not getting nerfed. You did manage to counter it in the jungle.
-T1 will go faster when you improve it. Or better, make a T2.

I've stated before, mountains are not accessible by wheeled vehicles, and a single RR is man portable.
Ah, thought our motorbikes could go wherever our horses could go. Does this mean we need to build mechs?

- The Recoilless rifle should be able to decimate MV21-ALs at a ratio not significantly less than parity. Given that MV21-AL are expensive, they should already be gone from the field.
Our armoured cars are thicker and made of better metal than your armoured cars. Medium armour on the front and Light everywhere else. The only reason our T15 hasn't been replaced is that it's armed with an artillery piece.

EDIT: That's before we get into shaping.
Mechs would be a difficult research path, but very worthwhile if you can get them to stop tripping over themselves. Probably easier to gain control of the mountains with superior infantry and then build a highway though. Or for all I care, you can build a highway now if you convince Moskurg to sign a treaty for ceasefire long enough to do so. :P

The T15, by the way, is not effective artillery, it can't aim high and its crew has a narrow view. For artillery, you've been using the guns on their own.
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Andres

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #565 on: August 03, 2015, 06:02:45 am »

What do we use the T15 for then? Also, we were supposed to have 4 Ore by now. Our trains are armed and armoured plus we managed to hold the line so we should've gotten it by now.
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Devastator

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #566 on: August 03, 2015, 06:07:00 am »

I'm kinda miffed by there never being any mention of worry to the Arstotzkan trains when their air cover breaks down.  Especially since with the radios, we can tell the airbases where and when the trains are, rather than attacking at random.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 06:28:27 am by Devastator »
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Andres

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #567 on: August 03, 2015, 06:27:16 am »

Patent the AS-AC18 and the AS-DB-HF-23. No way is Moskurg gonna steal our technology and claim it as their own again. Filthy stinking Moskurgs stupid stealing my own design the bastards I'll show them.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Taricus

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #568 on: August 03, 2015, 06:33:23 am »

Eh, try stealing out technology and patenting it :P
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Sensei

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Re: Arms Race, OOC Thread
« Reply #569 on: August 03, 2015, 06:36:14 am »

What do we use the T15 for then?
Coffins.

I'm kinda miffed by there never being any mention of worry to the Arstotzkan trains when their air cover breaks down.  Especially since with the radios, we can tell the airbases where and when the trains are, rather than attacking at random.
Bombers are mostly attacking the front lines. Arstotzka is uncomfortably close to your logistics operations in the mines, but you're mostly not crossing into their logistics in the plains.
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