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[Taricus]

To all the guys in the Arstotzkan thread, please note there's no UN. So stop thinking they'll do much for you. Also you might actually have to apply to the league of nations first for it to apply too

[LordSlowpoke]

didn't we both get into the league of nations? back when the british visited and the tigers lockpicked their way out of their cages?

[Sensei]

So, Sensei, what do we need to do to be able to use our totally not a copy of Tiger Whisker?

I would say distribution new cipher cards could reasonably be an Order.

[Taricus]

I think they just put us on a list for that

[Sheb]

So we didn't get advantage of our design because of an order? I though High Command was incompetent when they insisted on flag on uniform, but this. 

Note to self: include a note on all new design that they are meant to be used.

[LordSlowpoke]

high command is the worst enemy for both sides of the war

we should just call a truce, take high command down, and return to our daily scheduled bickering

[Taricus]

Sounds good. I kinda want a ceasefire for WW2 anyway. Gives us a vacation from killing Arstotzkans.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Ha, imagine that the Endgame for this game is that suddenly a new force appears, dangerous and well-equipped, so both sides have to hesitantly join forces to fight back.

[Taricus]

Japan pre-1942?

[10ebbor10]

Ha, imagine that the Endgame for this game is that suddenly a new force appears, dangerous and well-equipped, so both sides have to hesitantly join forces to fight back.

Never.

[Sensei]

high command is the worst enemy for both sides of the war

we should just call a truce, take high command down, and return to our daily scheduled bickering

Sounds like rebel talk to me!

[Kot]

Anyway, I should also say that if you consult my armor chart from a while back,

Wasn't medium armor like 25-50mm? That's still kinda too much for AP from something that shoots at ~200m/s.

your medium tank armor still a lot less than, say, the WWII tanks which were vulnerable only to shaped-charge rifle grenades.

50mm of armor is about right for early WW2 medium tanks. We're in 1930, 10 years before.

I do believe there is an argument to be made that the Recoilless Rifle is one of those weapons which had all the potential to be designed into an effective version during the interwar period, but there was no motivation for countries to do so once the depression hit and that is why we didn't see better recoilless rifles until much later.

The argument here is that recoiless rifles are useless without HEAT or HESH. I am fine with them making it, not by it's performance with AP and APHE.

Not unlike Arstotzka's panzerfaust-in-1928 RPG.

Bazooka was built at end of WW1, and I belive our plans for it were closer to bazooka than RPG. You made it a panzerfaust.

There are game reasons as well that I make my decision; chiefly I don't want to suddenly pull the rug out from under Moskurg after they've had a weapon for a while and made plans around it.

I don't have much against Rhino as the damage was already done, though it's description is misleading¹. I have stuff against Hippo, as we mentioned it will be useless (with research!) before you made the battle report and it's still good in said report.

I feel bad in general about taking something back that's given.

There would be no need for that if you considered what players say a bit more.

I've even given thought to consciously and officially "dialing down" the realism and historical standards to which I hold new designs, just because I wonder if it is worth the effort sometimes (though I'm not doing that yet).

Go fantasy or go realistic. Middle ground is going to only cause issues of "what's fantasy enough to not be accepted).

I feel like I have to keep track of a fairly large amount of stuff already, and if weapons designs have me busting out the calculator I'm just not getting turns out on time, or having fun writing for that matter. Either way, it may have been the first measurably ahistorical weapon, but at the rate both of your nations are going it will not be the last. You've mostly caught up with real countries, who are now at peace and scrambling to fix the great depression, while you're at war with a bustling domestic war economy.

Screw calculator, go storytelling with some minor dice. There you go.

¹ "It fires the normal variety of artillery shells."
I don't read old reports a lot, and to the point considered that the gun was doing damage with regular HE or Incendiary (better idea than firing AP or APHE on tanks with a recoiless rifle).

[LordSlowpoke]

i still claim moskung should be allowed to make salt harvesting a major industry icly

[10ebbor10]

There are game reasons as well that I make my decision; chiefly I don't want to suddenly pull the rug out from under Moskurg after they've had a weapon for a while and made plans around it.

You do realize you're just pulling the rug from underneath us by providing the enemy with a reality breaking device, that hence can't be countered? I mean, how do you deal with something that shouldn't be able to penetrate your armor, but does anyway? (I have to grasp at straws to even come up with a possible solution)

I mean, all my plans were focused on reality staying the course.

Anyway, the problem is not that the enemy have a Recoilless Rifle. The problem is that they have a recoilless rifle that breaks our armor via AP.
Recoilless rifle are characterized by having extremely low muzzle velocities. The M67, designed in the 60's had a muzzle velocity of 213 m/s.

For comparison, The Becker type m2 20 mm autocannon has a muzzle velocity of 490 m/s, and later more advanced autocannons were higher.

The shells the Hippo/Rhino fire are 2.2 inch (56 mm). The shells fired by our autocannon are 20 mm. This means the surface area of our bullet is almost 8 times smaller.

Now, for neither shell the weight is given. However, for our autocannon round we have the dimensions. Which I can't really use, so I'm going to guess about 200 gram. Similarly, no units for the Recoilless rifle. However, a similarly sized US WW2 gun fired 2.5 kg shells.

This gives us a kinetic energy of 24010 Joules for each of our bullets, and a kinetic energy of 56711 Joules for the Recoilless Rifle. Despite using WW2 or even cold war numbers for the Recoilless rifle, it's clear it has only twice as much energy as the Autocannon, spread over an 8 times larger surface area.

The result of this is simple. If the Recoilless Rifle can penetrate, then our autocannon should perforate.

All in all, I merely require the answer to two questions :

Why does the Rhino penetrate?
Why doesn't our autocannon?

Now, we didn't need all this calculator stuff. It should have been patently obvious from the beginning, that AP rounds on a recoilless rifle shouldn't work. We said that like 40 times.

What's happening here is if we designed a B-17 to use as a fighter craft. It's a design being successfully utilized in the area where it's weakness should lie. See, the enemy successfully exploited our RPG's weakness by designing Slat armor. We can't do that, because the RR doesn't have a weakness.

[Sheb]

Yeah, that's a good point. How are we supposed to design a counter to something that break physics? :/