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Author Topic: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one  (Read 12790 times)

NullForceOmega

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So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« on: July 17, 2015, 05:20:26 pm »

Alright, I'm probably going to get reamed, and I may well deserve it.  So I'll just get some of this out of the way:

I am far too confrontational.  I am not laid-back or easy-going, I tend to fly off the handle and I'm not good at keeping control of myself.

I have no filter.  I use foul language without thinking, I don't really know how to stop this, it just happens, like my brain doesn't even recognize it as potentially problematic and it is only further reinforced by the above problem.

I am very bad at knowing when or how to drop a subject.  And again the above just makes it worse, so I just get mad and go off when I need to step out.

I don't want to be a problem to others, I've spent far too much of my life doing that and I just want to be able to stop.  Hell this shit makes my marriage harder to handle too, so if anyone has some constructive criticism please gods just lay it on me.
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forsaken1111

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2015, 05:27:48 pm »

Consciously changing your behavior is not an easy thing. It requires you to be aware of what you're doing and what you're about to do. Be observant, watch how what you do or say affects others and adjust accordingly.

To be perfectly frank, you're probably better off seeing a therapist than soliciting advice from a forum but the above is what has worked for me. You'd be surprised what you notice about yourself and others just by paying attention properly. Most people simply don't.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2015, 05:31:33 pm »

I don't doubt that professional help could be useful to the majority of people, but I haven't had any luck with therapists, probably my confrontational tendencies at work.

I really do try to be careful about my actions, but there are some critical things I'm just not seeing, or that I only see weeks or months later.  And frankly that worries me a bit.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

nenjin

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2015, 05:33:33 pm »

Talk less.

It seems obvious but...

Withdraw from trying to be part of every conversation. Be an observer instead. When you must speak, be deliberate. Measure your words for correctness, even if it becomes obvious you're trying to organize your thoughts. Slow down. Put your thoughts above running your mouth. I've got a lot of the same issues, and eventually putting my foot in my mouth often enough made me step back from the need to engage people and get in conversations just for its own sake.

When you get in the habit of needing to really have something worth saying to pipe up, you might find you're less apt to aggressively challenge people, and use fewer swear words because you're mental and emotional energy isn't constantly ramping up. It's like a boulder rolling downhill. You pick up and more and speed as you let yourself get wound up, until you are literally speaking without thinking. And then all sorts of bad things come out.

Quote
marriage

Ah, shit. Well talking less isn't really an option there, you can't really get away with that in a marriage. Not being married, I don't have any advice for you there.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2015, 05:38:19 pm »

I kind of run into a dichotomy there, on the one hand you are definitely right, being less involved most certainly does allow for greater control of what I say and do, on the other hand I already have a tendency to be withdrawn, and it's hurting my marriage.  I've been actively trying to be more open and involved with what is going on around me in order to put less strain on my wife (and kids), but it seems to be backfiring on me, as the events leading to the creation of this thread demonstrate.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

Bauglir

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2015, 06:16:36 pm »

Humility has been the biggest thing for me; but I do not know if it will be helpful for you. My own brand of shitheelery is of a different kind than yours seems to be, and one of the hard lessons I've had to learn is how to be confrontational and active in my approach to life and stop filtering everything. So, take the things I have said and am about to say for what they are (which is potentially useless). On the other hand, I had a similar blindness to the arrogance that caused that behavior, and that led to me hurting a some people as I pursued things they didn't want to be a part of, tried to make decisions for them, and generally refused to accept that they had any perspective worth listening to. So maybe it'll help after all.

I'm gonna steal a bit from Louis C.K. here - "If I were to make a list of possibilities, God would be pretty far down. But if I were to make a list of people who know what the fuck they are talking about, I would be really far down." That's actually a valuable insight for a lot more than theology. Also, this is why I led with a disclaimer. The point here is realizing that the whole debate over whether there's objectively right answers to things is ultimately a tremendous waste of time. Whether there is one or not, you don't get to experience it, and neither does anyone else. That's one of the few, objective truths you have at hand to work with.

Internalizing it is hard, but the reason it's good to do so is that it forces you to be alert to new information. You have to listen for what people mean to say instead of what you feel they've said, because your perception doesn't really have all that much to do with their intention. You have to slow down and consider how they'll respond to what you say, because their perception isn't any better than yours; so it's often worthwhile to take extra effort to avoid a miscommunication. And so on and so forth.

I mean, you don't want to go too far in the other direction. Being unsure that you're right doesn't mean being sure that you're wrong. You will still misunderstand, sometimes, and you can't possibly make the effort to anticipate every possible reaction every possible person could have to every possible thing you could say. It's simply not practical to burden yourself with that kind of obligation, and thanks to your own limitations it'd be a futile effort anyway. In order to function in a world like this, you have to be willing to apologize when you make a mistake (and you will) - and then move on. This is hard, especially if somebody else is still angry at you. Remember that you don't need to have intended harm for an apology to be warranted - errors are a thing. Once you've made a good-faith effort to apologize, though, you've more or less done your part. You don't need to accept grudges (and shouldn't hold them, either).

So, that's basically what I mean by humility - be willing to go "Oh, hey, I fucked up, sorry" and mean it, whether you actually expect forgiveness or not. The last part was the big deal to me, because I would always try to exploit it or feel betrayed when I wasn't instantly forgiven; turned out, I didn't really mean it, and was just looking for a convenient way to get out of unpleasant situations. This might be a helpful direction to look, but perhaps more for the earlier bits of the idea? One way or another, changing yourself takes a lot of focus and deliberate effort, not to mention time. But, hey, way to go on being able to examine yourself and decide to improve. That is an awesome thing, and a good sign. Recognizing you have a problem is the first step to solving it, and all that. Much respect, and good luck.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2015, 06:31:58 pm »

Okay, I'm trying to parse that, so please let me know if I've missed something or gone off the point.

First:  Listen to what people have to say, and try to avoid assumptions?  The informational part of this one is a bit unclear to me.

Second:  It is unlikely that I have any better idea than someone else about something, so don't get hung up on the debate?

Third:  Pay attention to yourself and to others their reactions will inform you and yours will inform them?  Basically that seems to be the gist of this one.

Fourth:  You're going to make mistakes, try to be mindful of them and do your best to acknowledge it?

And the last:  Make your apologies and then move on?  Without expectations?

Sorry if I misunderstood something, I'm really, really bad at social interaction, and I need to find ways to be better about it.  I'm very rapidly finding that my tendency to try to dismantle things is problematic.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

Bauglir

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2015, 08:35:40 pm »

Don't worry, the problem here is almost certainly that when I try to be helpful on this sort of thing I tend to ramble. A lot. And not make a ton of sense. Part of it is that I am very bad at hammering my ideas into words - this is something I need to work on. Which I will try to do, here. Point being, unclearness here is almost certainly my fault, so let me know if it persists.

You've mostly got the idea of what I tried to say.

First - Listen to what people have to say. When you do make assumptions, reconsider them when they are challenged. Challenges can come explicitly, from people directly objecting, or implicitly, from things that just don't make sense given your assumptions. Assumptions are kind of necessary a lot of the time, for reasons I'll get into in the next chunk, so don't worry too much about them in the abstract.

Second - It is often not the case that you and someone else are talking about the same things, in the same way. Often people have subtly different ideas about what words mean. Usually, people tell themselves stories about what they know or think, and that means they fill in details. This is why thought experiments can get weird sometimes. So when you talk about the fat man who knows where the bomb is, some people are picturing Newman, while others are picturing Santa Claus. Instead of trying to make sure everyone else has the same idea of "fat man" as you, try to find out what their idea is so that you can use it to communicate the idea you actually wanted to talk about in the first place.

Third - That's the idea, if I'm parsing you correctly. Many people judge themselves by their intent, and everyone else by the effect everyone else's actions have on them. If you cut someone off on the interstate, it's because you almost missed your exit and that was more important than worrying about some random stranger's opinion of you. If someone cuts you off, it's because they're an inconsiderate asshole. I often have to force myself to think, "Okay, wait, they probably weren't actually thinking about how it would impact me at all".

Fourth - Absolutely. So is everyone else, too, so try not to judge them any more harshly than you judge yourself.

Last - Yes. That's exactly it. I've realized that "not being an asshole", at least for me, mandates that I be willing to make myself vulnerable like that. You need to be content to move on, without blaming them if they aren't.

In this case, I think dismantling is fine - if it helps you understand what I'm trying to say, it's something I'll try to work with, since that's kind of the point. Of course, once understanding is achieved, you're also free to decide my advice isn't that useful. I'm not pretentious enough to think I've got all the answers, so... yeah. I'm also an asshole sometimes, especially when I'm frustrated, as you might have noticed depending on how many of my posts you see. So I've obviously got a lot of learning to do, myself.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2015, 11:01:13 pm »

Thank you for clarifying and bearing with me.

Upon careful reflection I think the biggest sticking point for me, at least where the confrontational issue is concerned, is that it is not 'okay' for me to back down.  Without going into my life story, it just is not safe for me to back down once I step up, and that definitely leads to problems in normal interaction.

As for the rest of my being an asshole, I'm kind of lost in general as to where I'm just doing things wrong.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 11:37:09 am by NullForceOmega »
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Jo

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2015, 04:02:33 am »

First off we need to know how old you are.

If you are angry because of your upbringing this shit can and will mellow over time. I can tell you this from experience. I got hit a lot growing up, tons of fights. It takes a long time to get over. I think I was near 30 before I calmed the fuck down.

Secondly you need to examine your source of anger. It's anger that's going this. Maybe some deep seeded bullshit from growing up, maybe you are unhappy at work or home. Something is putting you on edge. Finding the nucleus of this anger is probably a good first step.

Thirdly, and I tell this to all young dudes. Lift weights. More than running or hard cardio type of stuff, more than anything, this activity blows off your excess t and makes you calm calm calm. That and fucking, but lift first, fuck a lot second.

Sorry if the language was a bit R rated here, I'm sure the thread starter can handle it.

EDIT: Reading a bit more into what you've said above, you might have a 'control' type personality. Man. That's hard to deal with. When there's loud music playing next door what do you do? Freak out? Groove out? Turn your own up and have a party? Hate the neighbor with the fire of exploding suns and swear revenge at the alter of Crom?

That melds with my 2nd point. ID the problem. Find the anger source. A 'control' issue, being angered by chaos, that is a tough one to deal with. This was never my problem but I can talk to some friends who have conquered it if you think it's helpful.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 04:07:01 am by Jo »
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NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2015, 10:46:45 am »

I'm 32, I know the source of my anger very well, and I have been trying to come to terms with it for eighteen years.  So this problem is not going away in the near future.  I would love to get more solid exercise in, my time and budget make this exceedingly difficult (I am a stay at home dad with two small boys, I get exercise, but not enough.)

I don't think it's so much that I have a controlling personality (I could be wrong, not being able to judge my behavior impartially), but I do have MASSIVE rage problems.  I don't really feel a need to be 'in control' but I do need to feel 'safe' (I'm not diagnosed, but I display signs of classic PTSD according to several people including my wife.)

I don't really want to bog down the thread in analysis of the factors that have lead me to being what I am (if there isn't another option I can do so though), I'm looking for better coping methods (if they even exist) so I can be less disruptive.
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Neonivek

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2015, 10:53:20 am »

Well I have to ask

Are you being an ass on purpose? or do you not realize you are being an ass?
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NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2015, 11:00:06 am »

It's not so much a choice as it is just the way I am, I am confrontational, aggressive, and there are a fair number of things (not all of which I am actually aware of) that just make me lose it.

I am also highly intelligent (which leads to me acting or sounding arrogant), fairly empathetic (this can be problematic too), and extremely analytical (so many problems with this.)

So I have a 'perfect storm' of attributes that make me come off as a complete douche whenever I stop tightly controlling myself.
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forsaken1111

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2015, 11:06:53 am »

You say you want to change that behavior but at the same time you refuse to take responsibility for it, saying 'That's just the way I am'. It's not. You are responsible for everything you do, and you can stop yourself from doing things you don't want. You won't be able to change your behavior until you stop saying things like "my brain just does X".
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NullForceOmega

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Re: So, I'm an asshole, but I'd like to be less of one
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2015, 11:12:32 am »

Well, that definitely is a valid point.

Okay, so that is one of the things that I am doing that is preventing me from confronting the problem, which is, ultimately, me.  Thank you for pointing that out.

'If' I can spot myself doing that (and that is definitely an 'if'), what do I do about it?  I mean aside from stopping myself from doing stupid shit (when and if I catch myself before doing something), how do I use that to help me?
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.
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