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[Harry Baldman]

Collectivism and individualism don't quite seem to fit lawful and chaotic, though. How is keeping your word a collectivist action, for instance, and how is breaking it individualistic?

And besides, most of the discussion is about either borderline cases where someone isn't sure what action is consistent with what alignment or how RAW produces unusual results. We know good is altruism and selfishness is evil, and that collectivism and individualism broadly fit law and chaos. The question is on how to categorize more unusual stuff and, possibly more importantly, how to shut down mid-game waffling on the nature of morality with clearer understanding of where goes what.

[TempAcc]

Yeeeea, neither collectivism nor individualism correlate specifically to either lawful or chaotic. You can have collectivist chaotic characters and individualistic lawful characters, its all a matter of context. Evil cultists are a pretty common staple of collectivist minded chaotic evil characters, and individualistic lawful characters are pretty common. Any warrior that follows a personal code of conduct is a good example of a lawful individualistic character, if said code makes him individualistic, that is.

[WillowLuman]

There's also the question of people who have morals or beliefs but don't practice them, whether due to laziness, hypocrisy, or a sense of disempowerment. Like someone who has good beliefs but does evil things because they take less effort in their situation, and jump through hoops in their head to justify it.

[highmax28]

(removed)

Evil isn't necessarily selfish. You can be a selfish cunt but still be considered neutral. As I stated earlier, one person was very hurt and doesn't want to let others in, but they aren't necessarily evil, especially since they want to be proven wrong that everyone is going to use them.

And I think the broad statements are like saying someone who killed over a million people is a mere murderer. There are so many niches that evil can fill that is more than just selfish. You can be doing evil things for all the right reasons and still be considered evil. Tragic villains tend to fall in this category, and their ideals are usually far from selfish, at least in seeing it from their eyes

[Neonivek]

(removed)

Evil isn't necessarily selfish. You can be a selfish cunt but still be considered neutral. As I stated earlier, one person was very hurt and doesn't want to let others in, but they aren't necessarily evil, especially since they want to be proven wrong that everyone is going to use them.

And I think the broad statements are like saying someone who killed over a million people is a mere murderer. There are so many niches that evil can fill that is more than just selfish. You can be doing evil things for all the right reasons and still be considered evil. Tragic villains tend to fall in this category, and their ideals are usually far from selfish, at least in seeing it from their eyes

Why are people so against letting other alignments be villains?

Yeah you don't want any psychopath to apply the good alignment because they are so willfully blind or outright psychotic that they believe themselves as doing the greater good.

Yet I always liked the idea that the "Evil" version of the Crusader... Is still a "Good" character.

Or rather I don't like the alignment system to be a Karmic balance that tells if the actions you take are truly good or truly evil.
---

The reason many Tragic villains are still evil in spite trying to do good. Is because they are kind of "I will plunge myself into hell itself in order to achieve these ends" and honestly I prefer to keep them Neutral a lot of the time.

[Toady One]

(muted cochramd for 3 days for insulting people)

[highmax28]

(removed)

Evil isn't necessarily selfish. You can be a selfish cunt but still be considered neutral. As I stated earlier, one person was very hurt and doesn't want to let others in, but they aren't necessarily evil, especially since they want to be proven wrong that everyone is going to use them.

And I think the broad statements are like saying someone who killed over a million people is a mere murderer. There are so many niches that evil can fill that is more than just selfish. You can be doing evil things for all the right reasons and still be considered evil. Tragic villains tend to fall in this category, and their ideals are usually far from selfish, at least in seeing it from their eyes

Why are people so against letting other alignments be villains?

Yeah you don't want any psychopath to apply the good alignment because they are so willfully blind or outright psychotic that they believe themselves as doing the greater good.

Yet I always liked the idea that the "Evil" version of the Crusader... Is still a "Good" character.

Or rather I don't like the alignment system to be a Karmic balance that tells if the actions you take are truly good or truly evil.
---

The reason many Tragic villains are still evil in spite trying to do good. Is because they are kind of "I will plunge myself into hell itself in order to achieve these ends" and honestly I prefer to keep them Neutral a lot of the time.

I love that idea, but its difficult to really make it happen (for me at least)

(muted cochramd for 3 days for insulting people)

THE THREAD HAS BEEN GRACED BY THE ALMIGHTY TOAD! Though I wish it was on better tidings...

[AbstractTraitorHero]

TOADY SEMPAI!!!!!! TOUCH MY FACE!!!!

[My Name is Immaterial]

(muted AbstractTraitorHero for 3 days for creeping out the mod)

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I was making a reference to fire emblem fates with the touch my face thing.

[highmax28]

I was making a reference to fire emblem fates with the touch my face thing.

My buddy got really butthurt they removed that... I don't see why its such an appealing thing...

Anyways, derails aside, I'm gonna ask a question here that really makes me wonder:

What deeds do you think overstep the boundaries of chaotic neutral and it starts to travel into evil/good/lawful territory?

[GiglameshDespair]

I was making a reference to fire emblem fates with the touch my face thing.

That still doesn't really help your case.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I was making a reference to fire emblem fates with the touch my face thing.

That still doesn't really help your case.

Eh if I'm ever gonna appear creepy it'd be on the internet where I can be sufficiently morbid/creepy though this was clearly a joke so meh.

[Dirst]

Eh if I'm ever gonna appear creepy it'd be on the internet where I can be sufficiently morbid/creepy though this was clearly a joke so meh.

I'd call it Neutral Creepy

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I'd call myself good creepy considering I'm ussaly a good guy.