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Author Topic: No Trolling Please: Is Military the most convoluted/complex in all videogames?  (Read 2980 times)

Max™

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Toribash without an instruction manual is kinda like dwarf fortress without an instruction manual, actually, it's almost a perfect comparison.

I mean, I once ripped my own head off, spun around in mid-air, hit the training dummy with my head, then got tangled into a heap and died. That's pretty close to a first try breaching an aquifer or volcano I think.
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IRON_GAUNTLET

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If you just started playing dwarf fortress, military will look impossible. But once you have enough experience and got the hang of the UI, setting up military is really easy, as long as you have enough dwarfs. A bit tedious yes, and you have to unassign their other jobs and give them training weapons, but not mind-boggling complex.
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Splint

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I personally didn't have too much trouble figuring out the military, but then I'm a tad kill-crazy when it comes to this game and it was one of the first features I figured out because I wanted soldiers able to live up to the heroes of the old tales.

From what I can tell, it used to be way worse than it is now.

Neonivek

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Well there are a few levels of convoluted starting at the easiest

1) It is immediately obvious
2) It is intuitive
3) It is intuitive yet complex
4) You need a tip to get the general idea
5) You need to read the instructions to understand it
6) You need a guide
7) You need step by step instructions
8) You need an outright tutor
9) You need to be a genius!
10) It is a mess!

So I'd say the military is a 7/10 on the scale.
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Splint

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I'd say it's a 6 right now. A guide most definitely helps, especially with patrols and scheduling.

I tried out the older versions and I couldn't really wrap my head around it very well. In comparison to now, it was probably between 7-10, depending on personal tolerance for confusion.

I don't know if some people just grasp the military aspects way easier than others  or what, but I'm with StagnantSoul on it not being that bad once you have an idea of what you're doing in general. I personally only needed help with getting the drunken little tossers to actually train; from there I found things fairly straightforward (equipping, basic orders, assigning dudes to squads) blundered about and somehow figured things out (patrols,) or ignored from there (scheduling.)

I'll admit, I still haven't quite gotten the grasp of scheduling, which is probably the worst of it.

Shonai_Dweller

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It's pretty...tricky at first. But very rewarding once you get into everything you can do.

I think the biggest issue is that whenever a kind-hearted veteran takes the time to explain the system, they end up i) Delving into complex, minute micromanagement detail on how to max the system ii) Giving complex workaround advice for bugs that have already been fixed. It makes it seem a lot more complex than it actually is.

Things go more smoothly once you've figured out the way things are supposed to work and try that, rather than trying to work around often imagined broken systems.

Not saying there aren't bugs, but they start to become fairly obvious once you've played around a bit.
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vjmdhzgr

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It was pretty easy to learn for me, mainly because most of it's already set up. You can just assign two dwarves to a squad, and set it to active and they'll work. The only thing you need to do is set their equipment which, while it's been a long time since I had to figure it out, was probably pretty easy, I don't remember needing a guide.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyway, you just press a key, then press enter on the type of armor you want them to wear. I suppose I've never messed around with the training schedules, or the burrows, or pretty much anything other than the equipment and ammo screen, but I've never seen any need to.
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Robsoie

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With the keyboard it takes a lot of key pressing to select dwarves and to select the weapon/armor types to carry (assuming you don't use of course the presets that you may not want if you prefer to have specific squads equipment).
It's not hard once you have read some guides, it's just very annoyingly (as there are more fun things to do) long to do.

Maybe having a better mouse support to assign the would be helpful, in its current state (if you have mouse enabled in the DF options) you right click to move your list down the same as if you did a pageup, you can left click on a dwarf to assign it, but with the mouse there is no way to check that dwarf stats or even if the dwarf belong in a squad already (as only the current highlighted dwarf has that information) before assigning him.

In the end it's just a problem of interface that isn't as good as it could be, moving the mouse over a dwarf in the list should popup his military stats, this would allow to assign much faster than having to press keys dozen of times.

If you use DFHack, you can add colors to the dwarves list so you don't have to select them before knowing you have already assigned them to another squad, that's a progress to select things faster as in stock DF you need to select and see up the screen that the guy is already assigned .

Now once you have setup all your squads and schedules, it's rather automatised as they train automatically, and you can move or assign a kill easily too.

It's just the original setup that is very long to do with how the interface works (keyboard), better mouse support would certainly make things a lot faster.

And how about the wear armor over clothing ?
Most of your dwarves may have a cap and then will be unable to wear the hemlets you just forged if you allow armor over clothing.
And if you don't allow that in order to get your helmets on their heads, be prepared to have lots of dwarves embarrassed to have no pants or other things because they can't wear them + your amor if you diabled armor over clothing in order to get them to wear helmets.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 09:41:25 am by Robsoie »
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PrimusRibbus

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Most complex? No. Managing squad members, equipment, and training/patrols is nothing particularly groundbreaking. It has a lot of strange feature bloat like uniform colors, but the fundamental concepts are not over the top.

Most convoluted and unintuitive? Highly likely. DF's military screen is the Rube Goldberg of video game military management, for no particularly good reason. There's no intuitive way to walk through the interface, and the whole thing is setup like it was made with mouse support in mind.

The number 1 feature I want in DF is a way to save, export, and import military & uniform settings like we currently do with embark profiles. Setting up the military at a new fortress is about as fun as making an Excel spreadsheet with no macros, half the features removed, and a keyboard that only works half the time.
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Sanctume

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DF fortress mostly is a simulation, and the depth of combat simulation comes from the many details lain out in the raws such as body parts, body layers, armor layers, weapon skills, armor and weapon materials and quality.  Then add procedurally generated FBs with many combinations of attacks and composition as one enemy.  Or even better, simulate fights between groups of individual dwarves versus groups of individual goblins on mounts versus undead minions versus HFS and you can have a 4-way battle royale.

But in order to get this simulation of epic battle, players only have limited means to only manipulate the factors through each dwarf via armor uniforms, weapons selection, training up their skills, and when to engage the fight.

The direct functions to command these dwarves are limited to move to an area or attack an individual target or defend an area.  But even when attack designations are set, the dwarf is still not directly controlled because the dwarf is still stimulated on whether it will go directly attack, or take time to gather equipment, or eat first or sleep first, or flee in the fight, or fight to the point on unconsciousness only to wake up and continue fighting.

So the current game hardship is through the UI on how to provide changes to the limited functions in tweaking the simulation.

Armor uniforms, is tedious because it does not allow copying and loading uniforms between fortresses.  Functionally, it's simple as picking which ones to wear, and who will wear the uniform.  It can be Ok once setup initially, but if a player wants more uniform combinations, it becomes tedious.

Uniform is further complicated by the other features such as replace clothing, wear or not wear as civilians, hidden uniform for certain labors, material choices and availability, and even material colors.  So a player can want to have many uniform combination which makes the details so mind blowing, but how to assign those uniforms are tedious after the first set because I have to start from scratch of naming the uniform, selecting the armor pieces once again, and then choosing the material for each armor piece. 

Knowledge of how armor layering applies, so when a dwarf "simulates" wearing the uniform, sometimes the dwarf ends up naked and the player confused.

Training is fairly simple as assigning a barracks and setting the squad to train in that barracks.
The complications come with the many ways to set up a barracks.  On whether to sleep there, store equipment there.  Training melee differs from range.
Again, training is simulated as the dwarves can either self-drill, watch demonstrations, or spar.

Squad assignment is fairly simple in function.  Pick a squad leader.  Add members to a squad.  Select uniform for the squad.
It's easy at first, but becomes tedious when you start having more than 30 military units.  Selecting a squad leader, then moving the cursor to find which dwarf belongs to that squad from a population list of 100+ is a lot of keyboard scrolling.

Now for the Squad Training Function -- that is a simple function by itself.  Select a squad and set when they will train.
The complication in the UI tries to fit this info in a grid matrix via ASCII display.  The functions to create an Schedule order (be it training or patrol or defend), for a set number of squad members, applied to which month of the year --- these functions are there. 

But even when these functions are learned, managing complicated scheduling for 4+ squads gets very tedious indeed.

edit typos from first draft, there's probably more typos and grammar errors but I need to go to lunch. :p
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 02:58:32 pm by Sanctume »
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Boss Fist

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I never found it that convoluted, personally.

This may be in part because I always go for a fortress design where anyone entering going from fortress to mine, outside to fortress, or mine to outside are all required to go through the main barracks which also has multiple blast doors, so I never really ask much of the soldiers.
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Arx

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I'd actually peg Aurora as being significantly more convoluted than the military. I'd rate the military at a three or four on your list, since I'm pretty sure I didn't look up very much at all (the only thing that comes to mind is appointing militia captains from the nobles menu), and routinely use many if not all of the features.
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Bumber

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You know what would be great? If the player actually had access to armor layer info in game. Equipment is probably the most convoluted thing about the military, if not DF as a whole.
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frightlever

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I mean, I once ripped my own head off, spun around in mid-air, hit the training dummy with my head, then got tangled into a heap and died. That's pretty close to a first try breaching an aquifer or volcano I think.

Made me LOL. So long as you took out the training dummy with your head, I'd call that a win.

Like most of DF, the military screen offers very little feedback. I ALWAYS get caught out forgetting to give my archers ammunition, probably because I start them as wrestlers and then when I think I can trust them (hah!), give them X-bows.

Something like Distant Worlds has a level of complexity which isn't immediately obvious, because most people play with the default automatic controls and get frustrated when things fall apart because they don't understand the underlying mechanisms.
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taptap

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It is probably the only game, where you can assign individual socks (to match colors and feed your OCD) to people. The essential functionality (that makes a difference in game) is, however, fairly simple once you know, what to look for. In fact, you don't even need military.
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