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[Neonivek]

So I was kind of thinking about it... but for the life of me other then a game where I make a robot's programming via programming via circuit boards... I cannot think of a single game that has had a more convoluted and complex mechanic in my life.

I mean there is Aurora and that can sometimes be rather obtuse with simple actions like "Go over there" yet Dwarf Fortress wins out. Then there is Archon where you had to play a game of time travel but that is technically intuitive (one of the biggest praises I can give to it... is that as complex as it is, it is intuitive).

But is there a single game that can beat Dwarf Fortress in just how the game is put together?

It would certainly make me feel better if I knew of a game that had something worse.

Well there is that fighting game where you had to control the person's body through individual parts... So there is two.

And no this isn't a flaming/trolling topic. So no trolling and flaming in this topic. If you think Dwarf Fortress is perfect then stay out of the topic.

[StagnantSoul]

I played a game where you controlled a kingdom in a conquest style fight, with 32 different resources, and could actually control it down the the individual soldier when you had thousands or millions. It was accurate and a bit hard to understand, I'd say it rivaled Dwarf Fortress in complexity, once you got down to how even individual soldiers could change an invasion.

[Avin]

I've always felt that the bigger issue is the complexity of the user interface. If I want one specific dwarf to carry a very specific item I've got the option to do that as long as I can figure out how and have the time to do so. But when it comes to using the military it's really not much more than pick a group, equip them, train them and then point them in a direction bent on blood and cross your fingers.

The depth on the other hand, the feed back you get and the detail of the combat, is completely mind blowing.

[Neonivek]

Well sort of. Just because you told them to train it doesn't mean they will train. That is where the convoluted nature pops in.

[Alfrodo]

Well there is that fighting game where you had to control the person's body through individual parts... So there is two.

That's Toribash.

And I'm going to say No.

Not yet.

[vjmdhzgr]

The tile doesn't seem to match the rest of the post. The title asks if military is the most convulted/compelex in all videogames, but then the post doesn't mention military at all?

[Neonivek]

The tile doesn't seem to match the rest of the post. The title asks if military is the most convulted/compelex in all videogames, but then the post doesn't mention military at all?

Because everyone knows how convoluted/complex the military is and thus I don't have to introduce it to everyone?

I guess I could give people the run down but that would just outright leave the thread open to outright trolling. Rather then just rely on everyone already knowing what the topic is and thus there can be no disagreements at what the military is.

Trust me... This is for the best.

[vjmdhzgr]

I don't get why you're so concerned about trolling. I have not seen a single troll in the approximate year I've looked at the bay12 forums regularly.

[Skribbblie]

I played a game where you controlled a kingdom in a conquest style fight, with 32 different resources, and could actually control it down the the individual soldier when you had thousands or millions. It was accurate and a bit hard to understand, I'd say it rivaled Dwarf Fortress in complexity, once you got down to how even individual soldiers could change an invasion.

Out of curiosity, what game was that?

[Finn]

So I was kind of thinking about it... but for the life of me other then a game where I make a robot's programming via programming via circuit boards... I cannot think of a single game that has had a more convoluted and complex mechanic in my life.

I mean there is Aurora and that can sometimes be rather obtuse with simple actions like "Go over there" yet Dwarf Fortress wins out. Then there is Archon where you had to play a game of time travel but that is technically intuitive (one of the biggest praises I can give to it... is that as complex as it is, it is intuitive).

But is there a single game that can beat Dwarf Fortress in just how the game is put together?

It would certainly make me feel better if I knew of a game that had something worse.

Well there is that fighting game where you had to control the person's body through individual parts... So there is two.

And no this isn't a flaming/trolling topic. So no trolling and flaming in this topic. If you think Dwarf Fortress is perfect then stay out of the topic.

Sure, why not?  This kind of question comes up every time we forget that Dwarf Fortress is pre-release code.  Is the military system terribly complex?  Yes.  Is this its final form?  Unlikely.  Is it fair to compare it to the universe of finished games that have been played?  Who cares about fair, this is a forum discussion. 

[StagnantSoul]

I played a game where you controlled a kingdom in a conquest style fight, with 32 different resources, and could actually control it down the the individual soldier when you had thousands or millions. It was accurate and a bit hard to understand, I'd say it rivaled Dwarf Fortress in complexity, once you got down to how even individual soldiers could change an invasion.

Out of curiosity, what game was that?

Reign of something. I played it a lot last year, but got bored of it.

[Jigowah]

Military isn't that bad once you dig into the guts of the interface and the particulars of their functions.  I'm still learning how it all works after over a year, and only recently have I dug into patrols and schedules.  It is an intimidating beast at first.

Now I understand that I can assign dwarves to a squad, equip them with exactly what I want to, and have them train, patrol and relax on a schedule.  It isn't that bad and you've already accepted the difficulty curve of DF so just learn it by experimentation and wiki, like everything else.

As other posters have said, the real pain is the convoluted interface and knowing that your best laid plans are constantly stymied by psychotic, alcohol dependent crazy people with depression issues and deadly weapons.

[§k]

I almost forget that dwarves can patrol. Patrolling marksdwarf may be good hunter.

[FrankMcFuzz]

I'm pretty sure there's even an option in the military screen to give dwarves a uniform based on colour. But I'm scared to touch it at the risk of my entire military falling to shreds.

Calendaring and training schedules are also things that I don't like to touch. But that said, I have no problem with the military screens other functionalities. "Armour Replaces Clothing" should be enabled as default, or "Armour over clothing" should just work as specified. But at least the military is still personal and unique, and with the depth we love.

I would be disheartened if, like other games, military was just represented by a number and a plus and minus button to increase unit count to simplify it. Personally I have more difficulty with the military aspect (and most other aspects) of Crusader Kings 2, but that's because I've only put 80 hours into it and not the required 1600.

[Salmeuk]

The military took some time getting used too, and the various ever-evolving bugs make for some frustrating experiences. I can understand why it's sometimes seen as the final piece of the puzzle by newer players, who leave it untouched until then have a grasp on other basics. Understanding that it sits incomplete at the moment helps alleviate my frustration.

The military screen is consistent in it's own logic, at least. By that, I mean that once you grasp the simpler of assignments and alerts you can build on that knowledge without relying on the wiki. That's something.

The majority of your interaction with the military screen can be accomplished in one go, taking no more than a few minutes even when following a guide (of which there are plenty about). After that, the training and patrolling is hands-off and if you need something specific killed than it's just as many button presses as building a door. That's quite a bit less convoluted than a few other games who's entire purpose is simulating warfare. I never really feel bogged down managing my DF squads, whereas commanding hundreds of different units in any of the Paradox games can sometimes feel like it's more work than it's worth.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It is interesting how you ask a question in the title of the thread then explicitly prohibit people from disagreeing with your opinion in that same thread. Not the best strategy for creating a healthy discussion, or so I've learned. I would also argue that no productive discussion has ever emerged from threads who's sole purpose is to declare "this thing is objectively the bestest/worstest thing ever!" but also that just an opinion, and there was probably at some point the greatest ever argument for the most correct thought written in a thread titled along these lines.