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[Ghazkull]

Harsh laughter rang out from Stonetree. Which apruptly stopped.

Aren't we eloquent today Tower Goldbloom? Kill children? I have never heard a creater intentional misunderstanding of somebody's words. Truly it is a pathetic man, who goes ahead and twists the words of another to his purpose. You should be the one ashamed.

What i said, my dear Goldbloom, was that we should offer our men to take revenge for their fallen, take their spoils of war as is their due. Unless what i presume is rather the case you would like to keep Irlax intact so YOU can properly line your pockets with the tariffs. What change is that? You take your spoils via the tariffs and the soldiers have to go empty-handed? I didn't see you on the frontline! Or was it you that lead the charge that broke the Irlaxi soldiers? I think not.

Our men have earned this. OUR men need this, i say! Let them have the city for three days. I never said anything about butchering children. I said allow our men to take their due. And to do justice by hanging those responsible: the entire leadership of Irlax. Even if that Chief Advisor has taken over the other high dignitaries obviously didn't care to stop him. They are just as guilty as the Chief Advisor himself.

But you would rather line your own pockets with the tariffs, keep their leaders alive so they can lick your arse and allow you to grovel before you...Do not peddle your hypocrisy in here Goldbloom.

[Hiddenleafguy]

"He trapped the king in his room, and killed most of the high dignitaries."

[Ghazkull]

So? He still needs Generals, he still needs Magistrates and Judges and a hundred other officials to run the city, men who do take off the workload of him, men of import who could have stopped him!

[Hiddenleafguy]

"He pretended to do what he did (besides the slaughter of the advisory but he managed to make that look like an failed military coup) under the kings name.

[Spiderking50]

HA! For starters, tariffs would go directly to the city and wouldn't benefit me at all. So your depiction of me as a greedy bastard simply doesn't make sense. You'd know that if you we'rent too busy slaying the Irilaxi. Who, asked for peace fortnights ago. I stand to make nothing if we let them live, but I have my soul to lose if we murder them in their homes. The only hypocrisy here spews from your mouth Stonetree, not to mention complete inaccuracies.

Let me see if I remember how you put it, "There is NO innocent Irilaxi"? Yes I do believe that was it. The children are guilty, the voters are guilty, the king in the dungeon, according to tower Stonetree is guilty. Lets murder them all and let our men rape, pillage, and loot their people, says mister Stonetree. Kill them like animals he says, and why? Because they wanted more territory. Now Stonetree wants their territory. Whos pockets will lined by the toppling of a republic? Not mine.

Mister Stonetree is right, I sent no troops to the front. And I'm glad I didn't if this is what they would be doing there. Let me ask you? What stake do we have in this war? Who's lands were invaded? Not ours. We are guests in this conflict. My men have no business taking the lands of the Irilaxi, and neither do yours. Tower Windborne, a respectful tower who did send troops to the front and infiltrated the Iralaxi government has shown that the country was usurped by a cheif advisory, yet still you press on to kill its people. No good men of mine will bear that on their conscious.

And who would stop him? No official in the government could stop him once we started taking lands. You think there were any magistrates and judges in their courts? We have been slaughtering their people left and right, the country is in shambles, and the people are terrified by the word Ragonia. No member of the Iralax could have stopped him because they were to busy bleeding on our swords. Stonetree swords.

I ask the Towers, who will gain from the claiming of the Irilaxi lands? It shan't be you or I. It will be murders and killers. looters and pillagers. The common and decent man will get nothing from this war. The blood of the Iralaxi will forever stain our history, forever signifying the council that slaughtered and entire people and decapitated a government. Why are we in this war? I ask you, why? What claim or right do we have? Certainly it isn't justice. Certainly it isn't defense of the innocent, that ship sailed long ago. We are here for greed and spoils, there is no denying that. To destroy an entire nation, for our own selfish gain, we'd be monsters. Savages. No god would smile upon us then my comrades. When a whole country runs red, it is not for justice. Nay, it be but for conquest. For slaughter. For gold. It sickens me to think that it is even a consideration of this once fine council.

[Playergamer]

"Now, I have some interesting information to add. A few days ago, one of my men returned from the Irlaxi capital. At the suggestion of our brilliant fellow Tower, Tower Elbegast, my man had convinced  that barbarian mercenary from earlier to abandon his employers, easily winning us the war. However, while my man was there, he saw something interesting." Richards turns to look at Tower Windborn, laughing. "You will not believe this, Tower Windborn. When my man went to Irlax, he saw the king. Alive, well, and, not locked in his room, but in control of the kingdom! How interesting, wouldn't you agree?"

[Ghazkull]

Gods Beyond. You would dare declare our brave soldiers rapists? Murderers? YOU would dare to do that? I am ashamed. Do our soldiers bleed and suffer just so you can insult them? You should be stripped of your position of tower.

And no, contrary to your Accusations, Tower Goldbloom, i have no stakes and no winnings in this war. My men weren't looting and i will have no spoils of territory or land. What you are doing here is accusing our fellows, my and your comrades of being nothing but greedy thieves and our soldiers to be rapists and murderers. You should be ashamed, especially since you in the first place supported this war, you voted for it and now you claim our soldiers down there who spilled their blood because of your vote shall not have their due?

The common, decent man you speak of has shed his blood at the frontline you sent him to, while you sat in your mansion feasting on wine and women, profiteering from this war, you even went so far as saying that war itself is business, and now you DARE lecture me on morality?

Yes i have provided swords to the front, i have provided shields and arms, because im a patriotic ragonan. While you sat and feasted, i raised Manipels to serve as replacements at homef or the men at the front. Did i profit? Yes. Immensely. But at least im no hypocrite.

I gain nothing by the conquest of Irlax...not that i can see at least. I only see that our men deserve to let off steam on the enemy and bring back something which recompenses them for their suffering and service.

I do not need another answer from you Tower Goldbloom. You have revealed yourself as the hypocrite you are.
 

he then turned back to Windborn.

What does it matter if the Advisor proclaimed the will of the King, or if it was the King himself? In either casse the entire leadership of the City made itself guilty of their heinous actions.

[Ardas]

"Peace, my Towers, Peace!. The situation of the war is clear - we have the advantage and the advantage must be used. Let us not consider the human cost as too high a price, for hesitation was not our domain until now, and we have a chance to actually impose bloodless terms. The victory was swift and blood was not shed in too great an amount, so there is no reason to be needlessly cruel now. I do believe we must press Irlax to the full extent and use our superiority. To do otherwise would be to squander this opportunity."

[notquitethere]

Tower Elbegast stands once again and bows towards Tower Jayne. "I would be honoured to accept you as the second member of the Patriots. May our ships sail together. Furthermore, I wholeheartedly back the suggestion for compensation for Tower Windborn in recognition of the sacrifice that won us Sarlax."

Then he turns to Tower Richards. "I am glad your man was successful entreating with the northern barbarians. When they fled the battlefields our victory was assured and many Ragonans owe their life to this. This is intriguing information you bring about the king. Tower Windborn, what make you of this claim? We will find the truth of it one way or the other when our decision is brought to their court."

"As for Tower Stonetree's advice on conquering," Elbegast says, addressing the entire chamber, "It is curious to see a man speak of conquest when he himself refused to join the fight. Let us not forget that Tower Stonetree was the one to suggest allying with the Irlaxi when Lorenze first sent a request for aid. I find this current outrage disingenuous at best. I believe the just course is for the Irlax to remain Irlaxi. It is better for us to have a trading partner and a defensive ally at our side rather than a crushed foe at our heel. We must be mindful of internal unity. It is the mark of greatness to be magnanimous in victory."

[Spiderking50]

Ha! If anyone should be stripped of position, its you. You want to let our men "let of steam" on an innocent populace! What do you think "let of steam" means to a bunch of hardened soldiers who have a misguided hate of an entire people? Whenever a conqueror conquers, raping and pillaging follow. When angry war-like men are allowed to "blow off steam" on the cities and people of that they have just destroyed, what do you think will happen? There is no sanctity at all in what you suggest. It is disgusting, hateful, and so morally repugnant that the word humanity is completely lost here.

I never said you are looting, I say your blowing off steam and taking loot back home to Ragonia. Yeah, that's looting. Let steam off on the enemy? No double speak has ever been less subtle. Rape, pillage, and loot. Slaughter and kill. These are the things hateful angry soldiers do when they are allowed to "blow off steam" on innocent people.

Also, once again you have shown your inefficacy as a tower. I was the first to vote on the issue of accepting peace with the Iralaxi and I voted Aye. You say I sit on my ass getting fat, but you are so wrong. I stand for justice, which is what we entered this war for. My vote has never and will never go towards the subjugation of an entire people and country. It will never go towards the shameful steam blowing of our soldiers onto the lives of innocent men. And it will never be for the crimes against humanity that you propose we commit. I shan't vote to to topple another government nor shall I vote to steal from civilians. The simple thought is unfit for a man of your rank. A rank you do dishonor. Is there no end to your lies and ineffectual name calling? You mud-slinging? Your war mongering?Shame on you and your house. Justice may never again be associated with the name Stonetree.

Tower Elbegast, now that man is a Tower and a Ragonian. Honorable and a true commander, I can respect that even in a war I don't support. He would never allow such heinous actions. I thank you kind sir for your reason and your words.

[Terenos]

Tower Norvar finally rises and speaks

"I too concur with the secondary motion to reimburse Tower Windborn, for their patriotism and their loss. My own men were in that battle, and I lament that more Ragonan lives could not be saved.

And make no mistake my fellows, that is why we entered this war. Had the Irlaxi won they would not think twice about taking the spoils of Lorenze and even potentially marching upon us in time. We have crippled our enemy, now we may show them our mercy.  I urge the Council to find a compromise between whatever demands Lorenze makes and the respect due another sovereign nation.

We will profit, have profited greatly. Let us not be greedy in our victory, for that is how we perceived Irlax, and how we may be perceived in turn. Win a friend in our defeated enemy, not a nation waiting for its comeuppance."

Pausing, taking a drink and consulting some ledgers before him...Norvar continues.

"Now, as regards the iron shipments from Anterra....We have just entered into a strong alliance with Anterra, it would be a great disservice to immediately find ourselves unavailable to help. However such an agreement may cause problems in the future. I propose instead that we guarantee their shipping (brief pause) for a few years only. Giving them access to our markets, but giving us the choice to break the deal should it prove too onerous."

[Ghazkull]

Ignoring Goldbloom, Stonetree turns to Elbegast

I have not refused to take part in the war. My men were employed otherwise, namely serving as replacements for the Manipels at the front as city guards. But my participating or not participating has nothing at all to do with the situation. Irlax is defeated, and we have a choice what to do, and as such as i recall correctly and understand correctly the workings of this Council we have  a right to vote and a right to propose motions.

And last i looked it doesn't factor in, nor does it make our votes heavier whether we partook in commanding troops at the frontline or not. So i don't see why i should not offer up a motion to conquer the city completely, ignoring the morality and pragmatism of the motion for the moment.

As for my change in opinion, Tower Elbegast, i am a pragmatic man. I do not care for the just course, or the right course, i care about whats best for Ragonia and what benefits its people most. When i moved to suport Irlax it had no deeper political motivation than that it was an easier and quicker war if we joined them rather than Lorenze. Now that we fought for Lorenze and defeated the Irlaxi for them i only consider what is best for our people again and that is an Irlaxi that is integrated into Ragona.

Leaving it as an independent City State, albeit a vassal, only spells disaster at one in opportune moment or another. Thus my reasoning goes, it would be in the end more expedient for us to integrate them completely. To accomplish this the leadership and all figures of authority which could move against us need to be removed. Then put in place our own men or at least men we can trust and then integrate them fully as Ragonians, in light of recent Ningard and Black Sun enchroachment i find that to be sensible.
And finally, the plunder of the City. I am sure Tower Elbegast you as opposed to other Towers are more aware of the realities of war and you know well that soldiers who come home without spoils are discontent soldiers...and discontent soldiers spell disaster for the order of our city. Of course we could pay them out a bonus...but then again, why should we pay for the mistakes of the Irlaxi? Letting our men plunder the city will give them their spoils, save us costs and demonstrate to the Irlaxi the price of betrayal...simple as that.

Morality has no place in War and i do not care for it. I care about Expediency and i press both motions...if you do not like it don't vote for it i do not care...but don't make my ears bleed with your whining.

the last words were roughly thrown into the direction of Goldbloom.

Indeed while we talk about expedience, in the sharing of the loot i presume we should first reimburse those with the largest losses, Windborn...and i think another Tower too lost a manipel if i recall correctly? In any case first reimburse the losses to all who have taken part.Then send one half of the remaining spoils to the City and the rest to the Towers according to their participation in the war.

As for Anterra...i personally would profit if we make sure Anterra can continue its iron imports...but quite honestly, i agree with Tower Norvar and some of the others, that Iron is crashing our Homegrown Mining and should the anterrans suddenly run into problems with our supply we are the ones who are screwed. I find both Norvars and Riskovs proposals carry merit.

[Spiderking50]

To ignore the right and just course will make a man many enemies. If you think the Iralxi would ever integrate into our society, you'd be a lunatic. To do as you propose would tell the Iralaxi, and the world, we are savages. No one will trade with savages. No one will come when we need aid. No one wants to ally with savages, because they know that someday our greedy eyes will turn to them. If you care for pragmatism then you'll abandon your course. Your words damage the reputation of our nation and if we follow you lead, then we'd destroy it.

So those who don't contribute troops sit at home getting fat on food and women, yet you didn't contribute either. And you dare call me a hypocrite. Ha! You're laughable, a jester, a clown! Ah mister Stonetree, you're quite too funny.

I think our path is clear. And I propose the following: We return the peace treaty offer with the following changes. (1) A section which requires they send troops in time of war. (2) A section which requires they pay us 35% of their taxes. (3) A section which makes their foreign policies and tariffs a matter to be decided by our government.

Now nothing is stopping mister Stonetree from putting looting and pillaging on the docket, in fact I encourage it. This is a democracy, our right to govern comes from that. However, I ask the fellow members of this council to follow Jus in bello. We are not all savages here.

[Ghazkull]

Stonetree just sits down.

"Call me savage all you want, it is the man who forgets form and manners and stoops so low as to resort to insults who is first to descend to savagery."

[Sheb]

I think Tower Stonetree is loosing sight of the greater picture. Leaving aside the obvious moral failing of his proposal, the fact is that Ragona is not an Empire. We are a small city-state, whose clout result from its wealth, which itself is the product of the willingness of our neighbors to trade. We do not have the might to be feared, so we must be liked.

The only real objection to the Irlaxian proposal is that they want protection without offering us support, or control over their foreign policy. They could start all kinds of foolishness and we would be forced to back them up. As with the Anterran demand that we guarantee their iron sales, I do not think it is wise for the Council to signs up for unnecessary obligations.

I think the counter offer of Tower Goldbloom is wise. If they refuse its conditions, we can keep pressing them some more.