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[LordBucket]

At the very least, make sure you're getting drunk together. Then you can both feel stupid if you regret it later, instead of just one of you feeling stupid.

That's an incredibly pessimistic way of looking at it.

Wouldn't "both go into it knowing exactly what you''e doing, and then be ecstatic you did" be a better result?

Reframe the situation!

You are saving her from a lifetime of loneliness and the misery of never knowing your touch!

She is about to embark on the awesome journey that is your embrace!

If you find her pleasing, you might consider allowing her to be your girlfriend. But only pending a limited trial period during which she must demonstrate her worthiness.

Does that sound silly? Great! Silly is a much healthier attitude than "oh, woe is me, I have to get drunk to give myself excuses ad plausible deniability." That's awful and sets a terrible precedent for the rest of your life. You know the cliche about girls liking confidence? You don't get that confidence by planning to feel stupid and regret your actions later.

Also, the first time you have sex kind of tends to imprint you for life. If you have sex on drunken regrets the first time, it will be all that much easier to have sex on drunken regrets the next time too. Then it becomes a pattern, and over years you end up teaching yourself that that's how it's supposed to be. Is that really what you want? I don't think so.

Look in a mirror, throw your bathrobe and both arms  into the air and cry out for all to hear "I am awesome and my penis tastes of the finest elderberry wine! Thou mayeth partake of its majestic beauty at my leisure!" Say it and mean it with all the majesty and grace of a flock of golden egg-laying swans in petticoats and tophats. And when you can say it and laugh, unleash it on your girl and hear her laugh with you.

That is a precedent to set for the rest of your life. And I guarantee you it will make for a more fun and memorable experience for both of you than getting drunk and pretending you didn't know any better.

[nenjin]

My point was: don't get drunk and then head over there. The whole point is it's supposed to feel spontaneous on some level, that moment when you're makin' out instead of nervously dancing around the subject. That's why drinking together to start something works for lack of just plain old "I like you" "Well I like you too!"

As opposed to: showing up intoxicated when they're not. As stated in:

Would you want to go out with a male friend somewhere if he was shitfaced and you are sober?

I've been on the receiving end of that, and even as a guy it's weird, getting a call from someone who is kinda hammered and wants to hook up for the first time. Liquid courage is embarrassing to see from the outside sometimes. It's much better to start drinking with someone to warm up to something.

That is a precedent to set for the rest of your life.

Nice speech. You really ran with it.

[JBramhall]

I was going to ask her yesterday when we were going to hang out, but she had made other plans. Now it will be 3 weeks till I next see her since she is going back to uni in the next couple of days (her uni is approximately 4 hours driving time south of where I live).

I'm starting to doubt that this will be a good idea, you all make me think it will be a great idea to even attempt, but the guys at work and some of my other mates think it could be "The biggest fuck-up will ever make"...

Hell, some of my fellow night shift workers have a bet going on whether I will go through with it and another one that is if I go through with it, will it lead to anything...

I think I should give it a go, I hope I don't over-think this in the next 3 weeks. If I do, i'll loose all courage and chicken out

[nenjin]

Well, what's the worst that could happen?

Let me tell you a story.

I met this girl in a college algebra class. Pretty much the polar opposite of each other. I'm quiet, she's loud. I'm olive skinned, she's white as a sheet. I'm an introvert, she's a big extrovert.

After progressing from helping each other with homework to hanging out, things start getting interesting. We have some drinks together, she meets some of my friends, I meet some of her's. We jokingly wrestle on the floor one day. (She was Bisexual and played on a women's rugby team...the kind of lesbian who is the adoration of the other lesbians because she doesn't look like your stereotypical lesbian. Anyways, she liked to play rough.)

I start spending a lot of time with her, like a couple hours a week hanging out. I meet her family more than once. I manage to be there for her when "real life shit" happens and she gets her collar bone broken during a rugby match. I'm the one she turns to, to take her to the hospital. We talk about sex, what we like, what our turn ons are, all that stuff. By all rights, I've been both a good friend and a decent prospect at a romantic interest.

At one point when she's getting all flirty one night, she shows me the color of her panties.  All the while giggling like a school girl and her face redder than the color of her hair. I mean, that's pretty much the go signal for any guy. No booze for either of us, just sexual tension.

So finally, I can't take this shit anymore. The flirting, the ambiguity, and I just pop the question that night while we're sitting out in her car smoking (I was staying at the dorms at the time.) "Do you want to go out?"

And in a big hurry she says no and like that, the mood balloon is deflated. That was pretty much the end of the relationship. We hang out a little more, eventually go our separate ways, she ends up marrying a woman. Ran into her at work a few months back actually, as the woman she married is a sister of one of my coworkers.

Not by far the biggest embarrassment of my life, and frankly knowing where I stood was better than continually feeling like I was being toyed with because she was a tease in a lot of ways. In terms of reframing, as one of my friends put it "Dude, you almost made a lesbian consider going straight."

The worst that can happen, honestly, is that the people you choose to confide in give you shit for it. Maybe your relationship with her alters some because she's turned you down and either you or her can't move beyond that. As for "MOST CRUSHING EMBARRASSMENT EVER", it's a load of crap. Take a read on what LB said about confidence. It includes when you're shot down too.

Have no shame, as I've heard it said. If you have no shame, you have nothing to worry about if she says no, and everything to celebrate if she says yes.

[Tiruin]

My 2c on this whole situation: Lots of people seem to think there's a boundary between 'just friends' and 'relationship', when there really just isn't one. News flash! You are allowed to hang out with the opposite sex even if you aren't immediately ~a thing!~. You obviously are friends and get along. It's somewhat of a 'If you have to ask, the answer is no' type of scenario. Except it really should be 'If you have to ask, the answer doesn't matter.'

These two cents!

Well, what's the worst that could happen?

Ehh, situational dangers
All I'm judging on the thing with alcohol is how it was interpreted and mentioned--while it has a degree of being a stimulant then a depressant, from what was said, it was more being used to...get partly drunk (because I've no idea what liquid courage means).

And I'm unsure why there's like a list of unspoken rules to note 'this person is into you ' when pertaining to gender roles when all I've experienced is one can easily know that by directly asking them too.

I'm starting to doubt that this will be a good idea, you all make me think it will be a great idea to even attempt, but the guys at work and some of my other mates think it could be "The biggest fuck-up will ever make"...

Hell, some of my fellow night shift workers have a bet going on whether I will go through with it and another one that is if I go through with it, will it lead to anything...

I think I should give it a go, I hope I don't over-think this in the next 3 weeks. If I do, i'll loose all courage and chicken out

Social pressure is a silly thing when it influences how you see things.
We all think you should just ask her--in varying ways and methods--but the base point is: Why are you even afraid? She knows you like her--so proceed from there as an awesome and best friend you can ever be.

There's all this talk about chickening out or predicting the negative effects of being 'no'd' and I can't get what's the big difference when you're already with good company (I mean its like they'll scorn you for some reason given the multitude of how you can communicate the idea). The no-part is also more on the idea that she's your good mate, so confusion in part of that also works out. [Look at it from both perspectives. Treat them how you'd like to be treated. Holistically.]

I'm starting to doubt that this will be a good idea, you all make me think it will be a great idea to even attempt, but the guys at work and some of my other mates think it could be "The biggest fuck-up will ever make"...

I wonder if ya think 'this is a permanent thing in my life and if I mess up [catastrophe happens. This isn't a nuclear disaster. Just nerves and communication.]' Overthinking stuff is also a detrimental quality.

[nenjin]

(because I've no idea what liquid courage means).

Must not drink much eh? It removes inhibitions. Makes it possible for people to overcome their hang ups, try something risky like flirt, ask someone out, dance in public, etc....It's a social lubricant. And yes, people who are drunk tend to get horny too. I don't approve of "trying to get people drunk", that's dishonest. But if you wanna get drunk with me, that's a different story.

And I'm unsure why there's like a list of unspoken rules to note 'this person is into you ' when pertaining to gender roles when all I've experienced is one can easily know that by directly asking them too.

See the above story. Some people need that moment to feel spontaneous, romantic even, and just straight up asking isn't what everyone is looking for. Yes, life and relationships would be easier if people could professionally go up to each other and sort these things out. But it's not that way. People see risk in everything, and that's why there's a list of things and signs and tells to help you make a smart "bet" on your ego.

Put another way. I had a woman get me drunk once in order to get me into the sack. We spent the night drinking at my house and when it was time for bed, I was the gentleman and let her have my bed while I slept on the couch. That lasted all of 20 minutes before she told me to get into bed with her. The next morning? That's not how she remembers it all.

People can be funny in their need to have to things go a certain way so their egos are satisfied with how they happened. Talking to her later, she basically didn't want to admit to telling me to come to bed with her because she didn't want to "seem like a slut", because it's typically the guy who makes the move and the woman who either accepts or rejects it, and we place stupid labels on women seeking what they want.

[JBramhall]

I'm starting to doubt that this will be a good idea, you all make me think it will be a great idea to even attempt, but the guys at work and some of my other mates think it could be "The biggest fuck-up will ever make"...

Hell, some of my fellow night shift workers have a bet going on whether I will go through with it and another one that is if I go through with it, will it lead to anything...

I think I should give it a go, I hope I don't over-think this in the next 3 weeks. If I do, i'll loose all courage and chicken out

Social pressure is a silly thing when it influences how you see things.
We all think you should just ask her--in varying ways and methods--but the base point is: Why are you even afraid? She knows you like her--so proceed from there as an awesome and best friend you can ever be.

I guess I'm just worried about fucking up my friendship with her, her and I chat about almost everything and almost every day. I know it wont be permanent but if I screw up our friendship by saying/doing the wrong thing... that would be catastrophic for me.

But on the other hand, I really do like her. I have a crush on her, She knows that but I haven't seen any signals that she likes me back (then again, she would probably need to come out and say it for me to get it).

I guess its just that I was going to ask her yesterday if she hadn't bailed. I was going to ask her a few days before that but I fucked up while driving meaning I couldn't get back to hers and ask her out. Shit just keeps coming up preventing me from asking her out.

My point was: don't get drunk and then head over there. The whole point is it's supposed to feel spontaneous on some level, that moment when you're makin' out instead of nervously dancing around the subject. That's why drinking together to start something works for lack of just plain old "I like you" "Well I like you too!"

As opposed to: showing up intoxicated when they're not.

we both drink together, not just me awkwardly drinking. well, she feels awkward when I've drunk a dozen while she and our other best mate are only on their third...
and I told her I have a crush on her while half drunk, she was drinking too, along with our other mate

[Tiruin]

(because I've no idea what liquid courage means).

Must not drink much eh? It removes inhibitions. Makes it possible for people to overcome their hang ups, try something risky like flirt, ask someone out, dance in public, etc....It's a social lubricant. And yes, people who are drunk tend to get horny too. I don't approve of "trying to get people drunk", that's dishonest. But if you wanna get drunk with me, that's a different story.

Oh x) I meant I wondered what the etymology of the word was, because it sounds pretty nice. I am aware however of the effects of alcohol on the person, basically along the orange lines there Though also of the detrimental effects it may have on how a person thinks about the current situation. It's a whole broad length of knowledge and understanding, which I'm really unsure would help in JB's case, but that's just me (given how the idea was delivered out of the blue...it may speak about that he's nervous or shy, and overcoming these things without such influences betters the person in the long-run by understanding how to communicate without those to give a boost [...it saves on money in the least]. While that's predicting a lot here, knowing how to interact in lieu of these emotions helps.)

[...]because it's typically the guy who makes the move and the woman who either accepts or rejects it, and we place stupid labels on women seeking what they want.

I wonder if y'all talked about that, and not, like, after. @_@ Because this would really poke at the idea of 'what seems normal' or like, 'how others think of you even if you don't know how that specific one person thinks and if they follow this seemingly-"common" idea'.
The story mostly always begins with 'Seems-...', as far as I've known that kind of reasoning.

But it's not that way. People see risk in everything, and that's why there's a list of things and signs and tells to help you make a smart "bet" on your ego.

Reminds me of the very same discussion I had with a friend on why people seem to conclude by assumption sometimes more than just being straight up. x) It'll be derailing though if I note the insights from that here.

PPE: Maybe talk about it with her than worrying about it? I mean given the openness of it all, judging purely by the details you've laid out here, that comes off as a better approach than most (ie even saying that you're a blunt person helps give the idea how you interpret things to them) either by spoken word or written (or textual). But that's just me.

[nenjin]

I know it wont be permanent but if I screw up our friendship by saying/doing the wrong thing... that would be catastrophic for me.

I wouldn't worry about that. The only thing you have control over is how you deal with shit. Be secure in your own feelings and let the rest of the world do what it's gonna do. And that might include things getting weird between you two if she says no. But again, if you can handle it like an adult than any weirdness/damage to the relationship is on her.

[JBramhall]

I just thought I would update everyone, she has called off next weekend. so not only has it been a fuckin terrible first 2 days of the week with continuous machine breakdowns at work, the thing that has brought a smile to my face and kept me from saying "Fuck This Shit" has been cancelled, and our conversations aren't as fluid as they used to be. And to top it all off, next weekend I have 2 weekdays off to do... Well... Nothing. A 4 day weekend with no plans now


P.S. Sorry for the necro

[Oirestel]

I'm going to be the bearer of bad news and truth:

It seems she wanted something very different then you eventually did. Telling her seems to have spooked her. It may never work again, and that's okay. Luckily for you, it's now socially acceptable to text her very simply and without emotional stuffs telling her that you feel like she's been blowing you off, that you get she may not reciprocate /more than friends stuff, and asking if she still wants to be friends.

Proceed to play whatever music makes you feel like you're a god among men, and realize that THIS TOO SHALL PASS.

You'll find your person. If she's not it, you gotta keep hunting.

[gimlet]

Hmm, I would caution against reacting right away - there are many possible underlying reasons for her actions that have nothing to do with you.   Give it a little time, GENTLY try again a few times before making any final conclusions.   But yeah also don't get your hopes too high - it usually takes somewhere between many and "many, many" attempts to find someone worthwhile, fact of life...

[Bauglir]

If you're having trouble reading her intentions, imagine how difficult it must be for us, who have only your own suppositions to go on and our own imaginations to fill in the many blanks in any stories you can tell us. Just about everybody figures stuff out by telling themselves a story; so we take the information you've given us, but all the bits we need to fill in causality, imagine the people, the settings, the objects, all of that comes from inside our own heads. We're making a lot of assumptions, here.

And, by the same token, so are you. She's got a life beyond you, and obligations and unforeseen complications that can crop up. Maybe one of her buddies had a bad breakup and needs some emotional support or something. Or maybe she really is avoiding you. Who knows! Only she does. Assumptions can create a lot of problems, when they're wrong. You're worried about ruining your friendship by pressing the issue, but have you considered what happens if you don't? Everything's got an opportunity cost. If you go on assuming she doesn't want to see you anymore, that's going to influence your behavior and become self-fulfilling. If you try to soldier on and pretend everything's normal, that, too, will color your behavior - and struggling to keep things the same invariably makes them different, given that you weren't trying to do that before.

There's only one good remedy for assumptions - communication. Talk (or instant message, email, etc) to her straightforwardly, and with respect for her wishes. Ask her what she wants, point-blank, and don't try to steer her toward what you want. Once you've both clearly stated what you're after, you can start figuring out together how your goals align and what each of you can do to satisfy the other, as equals. Worst case - each of you wants what the other doesn't, maybe there's an emotional blowup and you have a fight. That would be pretty bad! But at least it would be fast, you'll know you did what you could to handle things appropriately, and you'll know you probably wouldn't have done any better by keeping things under wraps.

[Ghills]

^

If she invites you to her house often, you are miles beyond casual flirtation and ambiguous social cues.

Stepping in to say: NO.

Lots of women are friends with men and invite them over to the house and are totally not interested in them as romantic partners.  This happens all the time. Assuming that friendship = sex is super annoying and juvenile. 

[nenjin]

^

If she invites you to her house often, you are miles beyond casual flirtation and ambiguous social cues.

Stepping in to say: NO.

Lots of women are friends with men and invite them over to the house and are totally not interested in them as romantic partners.  This happens all the time. Assuming that friendship = sex is super annoying and juvenile.

Based on my personal experience, including just last week, I'm going to disagree. Nowhere did I say friendship = sex. And considering she knows he has a crush on her, inviting him over has implications a simple friendship does not.