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Should Toady add polygamy / polyandry to Dwarf Fortress?

Definitely, yes.
I believe he should consider it.
Maybe.
I don't think it'd be a good idea.
Definitely not.
Don't care.

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Author Topic: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?  (Read 8589 times)

expwnent

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 04:29:51 pm »

I think dwarves shouldn't be polygamous but it should be raw-moddable. I agree serial polygamy (that means one spouse at a time, right?) makes sense for elves given their lifespan, no marriage makes sense for goblins, etc. Maybe human civs could be set up to vary. I don't see it as a high priority but it would be neat and it probably wouldn't be too much work to implement.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2015, 05:28:02 pm »

I agree serial polygamy (that means one spouse at a time, right?) makes sense for elves given their lifespan,

That's "Serial Monogamy".  (As in, monogamous to one person at a time, but multiple people in a row over time.  This also is a term that defines people who marry, have a cooling-off, have an affair, get a divorce, marry the person they had an affair with, then start the cycle over again.)
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expwnent

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2015, 05:29:57 pm »

Ah, ok. It could be neat just for cultural variety.
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Rex Invictus

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2015, 03:53:46 am »

Yeah, I just want to make stuff like fantasy goblins where there's one chieftain and a bunch of wives. :'(
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Shazbot

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2015, 07:39:59 am »

I've tried putting them in charge of squads of concubines with the [FEMALE] token, but I don't think its working.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2015, 03:06:01 pm »

I'm 100% in favor of different civs having a wide range of moral standards (about everything, not just romance), but there should also be a Strictness tag, for how accepting each culture is of deviations from their established social mores. Maybe a guy who sleeps around will simply become a bit of a social pariah, and a few of his friendships diminish to acquaintances . . . or maybe he'll become an untouchable, barred from entering all public areas or even being seen by a noble under pain of flogging, or simply exiled from the fort altogether.

Yes, the existing Ethics tags already have a framework for how things should be handled, but giving each civ a Strictness tag would add an extra dimension of realism. Take the issue of gay marriage in America--in Washington state, plenty of residents were perfectly accepting of married* same-sex couples, even before such a union was technically legal in that state. Meanwhile, in the deep South, tons of folks are still as rigidly Defense-of-Marriage as they were before the Supreme Court made marriage equality the law of the land. So one could say that these are two different civilizations who, although they have the same laws on this matter, choose to obey & uphold those laws in very different manners.

Yes, adherence to the law could also be subject to the personality traits of individual dwarves, but I think having civ-based tags would also help make the attitudes regarding specific crimes more consistent. For a procedurally-generated civ, there is the risk of two very similar actions (Torture_For_Information vs. Torture_As_Example) having very dissimilar reactions (Misguided vs. Punish_Capital). Giving each civilization its own Strictness tag--or even better, a separate tag for different categories of ethics (Sexual, Killing, Larceny, Torture, Religion, etc)--would go a long way toward keeping each civ internally consistent, while still allowing for broad moral ranges between civs.

* I personally knew a lesbian couple who got married in the Philippines before moving to Washington. The state recognized their union--even though they couldn't legally get married at that time, they were allowed to be married.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2015, 11:51:15 am »

I would have a single unified system that covers all creatures, intelligent and unintelligent alike, since frankly there is no fundermental differences between the present family arrangements of humans and those of certain other animals (aka wolves).  A creature has a default family arrangement and a set of potential family arrangements while the entity has a family arrangement that is legally/culturally normative.  To start with a prelimary list of family types for creatures (I do not claim to know the proper names for them).

True Promiscuity
Creatures become lovers freely with no limit on the total number that they can each have.  Children in this system do not have a tracable father at all but have a single mother.

Group Promiscuity (aka chimps, bonobos)
Individuals of one gender are bonded to all members of a group of the other gender.  Members of the latter group are 'bonded' to eachother prior to ever being bonded to the individuals of the other gender, which may be of any number.  If the group is male then Children born in this system count all members of the group their mother is 'married' to as their fathers but other females bonded to that group are not considered mothers.  If the group is female then fathers are not tracable but all other members of the female's group are considered it's mothers.

Group Polygamy (aka gorillas)
A single individual of one gender is bonded to all members of a group of the other gender.  Members of the latter group are 'bonded' to eachother prior to ever being bonded to the individual of the other gender.  If the group is male then children born in this system count all members of the group their mother is 'married' to as their father.  If the group is female then male bonded to the group is the father but all other members of the female's group are also considered it's mothers.

Group Marriage (aka lions)
Two groups of opposite genders bond with eachother primarily and then the two groups collectively 'marry'.  In this system all other members of both groups are considered father and mother to all their children.

Individual Polygamy (aka cats)
An individual of one gender has a number of individuals of the opposite gender that are exclusively bonded to them but not to eachother.  If the central individual is male then the child has two biological parents.  If the central individual is female then all males 'married' to the mother are it's fathers. 

Monogamy (aka swans)
Two individuals are bonded to eachother exclusively. 

Let's say that the entities cultural systems were as follows.

Human: Monogamy
Dwarf: Monogamy
Goblin: Individual Polygamy
Elf: Group Marriage
Kobold: Promiscuity

And dwarves were defined as such. 

Primary: Monogamy
Promiscuity
Individual Polygamy

Then dwarves romantic habits fit into human, dwarf, goblin and kobold societies.  That is because their creature type contains the potential for all three of their systems.  Introduce them into an elf society and we have a problem.  That is because elves practice group marraige, which is something fundermentally alien to their thinking.  A dwarf simply does not have the emotional basis for 'bonding' with a whole group of the same sex in order to 'marry' a whole group of the opposite sex bonded in the same manner. 

In this case the 'orphaned' creature reverts to it's primary system of monogamy.  Otherwise it follows whatever the entity it belongs to believes in. 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 12:01:13 pm by GoblinCookie »
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Calidovi

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2015, 07:58:47 pm »

In this case the 'orphaned' creature reverts to it's primary system of monogamy.  Otherwise it follows whatever the entity it belongs to believes in. 

Seems a little tricky for kidnapped youngsters then. Do they recognize the goblin culture as their own, are are dwarven mental traits still inscribed in them? I've had no firsthand issues with dwarves taking part in a goblin siege.
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AceSV

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2015, 09:10:37 pm »

In this case the 'orphaned' creature reverts to it's primary system of monogamy.  Otherwise it follows whatever the entity it belongs to believes in. 

Seems a little tricky for kidnapped youngsters then. Do they recognize the goblin culture as their own, are are dwarven mental traits still inscribed in them? I've had no firsthand issues with dwarves taking part in a goblin siege.

That would go back to the question of whether marriage style is biological or cultural.  Perhaps the raws could define both a creature level preference and an entity level preference.  We will soon have tavern visitors, many of which are animal people.  You might have a lion-man that prefers having lots of wives and a parrot-woman that prefers lots of husbands living in a dwarf civilization that prefers monogamy. 
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Calidovi

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2015, 09:27:14 pm »

In this case the 'orphaned' creature reverts to it's primary system of monogamy.  Otherwise it follows whatever the entity it belongs to believes in. 

Seems a little tricky for kidnapped youngsters then. Do they recognize the goblin culture as their own, are are dwarven mental traits still inscribed in them? I've had no firsthand issues with dwarves taking part in a goblin siege.

That would go back to the question of whether marriage style is biological or cultural.  Perhaps the raws could define both a creature level preference and an entity level preference.  We will soon have tavern visitors, many of which are animal people.  You might have a lion-man that prefers having lots of wives and a parrot-woman that prefers lots of husbands living in a dwarf civilization that prefers monogamy.

I'd push for personal preference taking lower priority than cultural stigmas.

But tavern visitors are just that: visitors. They are bound to their own ways and not necessarily restricted to dwarven culture. Once they join the fortress/mountainhome, however, then I could imagine their personal views would assimilate into the cultural norm as time passes. I'm not too knowledgable on DF code and whether this would work, though. I should get into that.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2015, 12:43:09 am »

Humans are fairly flexible when it comes to marriage strategies, at least the "normal" ones. 

Again, there are types like cuttlefish, where the females lay so many eggs, they can afford to allow fertilization by multiple different donor males, choosing some who are strong, and some who are better at camouflage, but outside of that, humans can be anything from strictly monogamous to purely polyamorous. 

Also, to go back to swans for a second, many birds are strictly monogamous.  Much like how the game treats marriage now, they do not remarry.  In fact, many birds simply stop eating and die if their partner dies.  This is because, biologically, many birds have children so dependent upon both parents being there that the whole family will die if either parent dies.  A good example can be seen in the March of the Penguins documentary - if the mother for any reason fails to return, (such as being killed by a predator while hunting to restore her fat reserves,) father and child will starve to death waiting for her. 

Comparatively, most humans are serially monogamous.  (Although it differs in whether they remarry after death, remarry after divorce, or just start cheating after their old relationships grow cold.)

On the other end, a cheetah father does not stick around to care for his children, as the mother is capable of taking care of her young on her own, and as such, a cheetah male can mate with as many different females as he can successfully court. 

Not that it isn't hard for a single mother now, but in a world before daycare was common in businesses and there were social welfare programs for mothers, single mothers that didn't have wealth (and weren't disinherited) were staring death in the face.  Throughout most of human existence, a single mother might possibly make it, especially thanks to her own family helping, but odds were far, far better for a child if both mother and father were raising the child together.  With that said, it's also just possible enough for a single mother to make it to make cheating, from a biological/evolutionary standpoint, worthwhile.  A male can have a "real" family, and have a mistress, and possibly raise twice as many children.  (A wealthy enough man can afford to have multiple wives/concubines/mistresses, regardless of official laws, and make sure they all are financially capable of surviving.)  It's also speculated that apes can show a reason why women have a biological capacity for cheating - when a new alpha male overthrows the old alpha, they tend to kill the children of the old alpha to make the females of the group no longer care for the children of another man, and make them ready to mate again.  A female that had cheated with the potential challenger to the throne, however, will put at least enough doubt in the mind of the challenger that they wouldn't automatically kill the female's offspring. 

So on the one hand, so long as it fits within the spectrum of what a human is biologically capable of doing, it would make sense that humans could adopt the moral rationale of the society they join.  On the other hand, humans are notoriously incapable of all being governed by the same set of marital rules. 

Some people are just born to philander no matter what the rules may be, and others will be singlemindedly monogamous even in a society that allows for polygamy.  Social mores will have significant impact, but ultimately, MANY people have cheated even in societies whose views of marriage ethics were [ETHIC:SEX_OUTSIDE_WEDLOCK:PUNISH_CAPITAL] and [ETHIC:INFIDELITY:PUNISH_CAPITAL]. 

Hence, for humanoid styles of reproduction, I would say it is probably best to have a strong innate tendency for some place on the spectrum, and it is moderated to a limited extent by the ethics of the civilization as a whole.  If you had it as a scale from 0 to 100 for human reproduction strategies, with 0 being strict (never remarry) monogamy, and 100 being Wilt Chamberlain levels of polyamory, then you might have a random number assigned at birth for their natural tendencies, and then average it out with the number in that spectrum where the society's ethics says they "should" be, and give the natural tendencies a weight of 3 or 4 times the size of the ethics. 
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expwnent

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2015, 01:10:43 am »

My two cents: there is a noteworthy difference between serial monogamy where marriage is supposed to last until one partner dies and a system where it's understood that the marriage is never intended to be permanent (either until they get bored or until they've raised one set of children, etc).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2015, 01:17:58 am »

My two cents: there is a noteworthy difference between serial monogamy where marriage is supposed to last until one partner dies and a system where it's understood that the marriage is never intended to be permanent (either until they get bored or until they've raised one set of children, etc).

Yes, but I'm not sure how that's termed, exactly...

Serial_Monogamy_Till_Death
Serial_Monogamy_Divorce_For_Extreme_Reason
Serial_Monogamy_Divorce_For_Differences
Serial_Monogamy_Separation_After_Children
Serial_Monogamy_Until_New_Lover

??
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2015, 02:01:23 am »

If you had it as a scale from 0 to 100 for human reproduction strategies, with 0 being strict (never remarry) monogamy, and 100 being Wilt Chamberlain levels of polyamory, then you might have a random number assigned at birth for their natural tendencies, and then average it out with the number in that spectrum where the society's ethics says they "should" be, and give the natural tendencies a weight of 3 or 4 times the size of the ethics.
That accounts for the "nurture" input from the civilization, but not the individual's parents. IMO, each dwarf's overall Promiscuity should be an average of the following (each point weighted equally):
  • The Promiscuity rating for the entire dwarven race, as set by Toady (possibly modified by the player)
  • The Promiscuity rating for the specific civilization
  • Mom's Promiscuity
  • Dad's Promiscuity
  • Completely random
  • The sum of modifiers from other traits: Romance, Merriment, & Independence all act to increase Promiscuity, while Loyalty, Family, & Self_Control all decrease it, and Law & Tradition move the individual's Promiscuity rating closer to that of the civilization.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Where is the Polygamy / Polyandry?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2015, 02:20:37 am »

That accounts for the "nurture" input from the civilization, but not the individual's parents. IMO, each dwarf's overall Promiscuity should be an average of the following (each point weighted equally):
  • The Promiscuity rating for the entire dwarven race, as set by Toady (possibly modified by the player)
  • The Promiscuity rating for the specific civilization
  • Mom's Promiscuity
  • Dad's Promiscuity
  • Completely random
  • The sum of modifiers from other traits: Romance, Merriment, & Independence all act to increase Promiscuity, while Loyalty, Family, & Self_Control all decrease it, and Law & Tradition move the individual's Promiscuity rating closer to that of the civilization.

Fair enough, I thought about including personality traits, as well, but I'm not sure if they should come before or after the marital leanings. 

Although if we're being really detailed, why mother and father, especially if that child never knew their father?  It might be something from the "people who raised the child", whatever that means.  Dwarven childcare seems rather communal at the moment past babyhood.  (In that the child tends to sit in the dining hall and talk to people until they hit adulthood.)
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