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[i2amroy]

And why are we still a pre-industrial society after 20 generations? As we've pointed out several times, with the right access to metals and enough manpower they could become a post-industrial society in 1, and I have no doubt they would be past that point by a few generations down the road. (And technically we'd be trying to feed our society on a lot raised meat and fish , though knowledge of the actual ways crop breeding works would let us evolve useful strains much quicker than we did in the past).

[mainiac]

You dont have 400 years of a large population doing work.  You have like 100 years of that large population trying to do that stuff while feeding itself without selectively breeded plants.

You cant use steady state assumptions in a hyperbolic situation!

[Magistrum]

You dont have 400 years of a large population doing work.  You have like 100 years of that large population trying to do that stuff while feeding itself without selectively breeded plants.
You cant use steady state assumptions in a hyperbolic situation!

Don't worry, most likely we aren't going to settle down anywhere for some time, and even then, we should probably be able to mold our children values in the perfect society, at very least for several centuries. See I2amroy's post on it, or my last one on child mindwashing. We shouldn't need to breed plants for long time, and after we do get to do it, we will still have vast tracts of untouched land, ready for gathering.

[mainiac]

No you dont have unlimited land, that's how exponential growth works!

When you have used just 10% of the land and feel no pressure at all you are just a few doublings from catastrophe.

[i2amroy]

Absolute worst case.
New law you impress into them along with your knowledge: For the next 5 generations each person may have as many children as they desire. After that each couple shall have no more than 3 children, barring the death of a child. Boom! Much more stable population, while still having a big enough growth early to allow you protection from disaster.

Additionally more recent plant cultivation efforts such as the pecan have shown that with a concerted effort you can cause huge improvements in as little as 100-200 years with more modern techniques behind your efforts. If we focus effort early on it, and continued focusing, we could probably begin the transition to good food crops within 10 generations or so, well before we ran out of food.

[mainiac]

Glad to see you come around.  Now all you need to do is teach them how to cultivate rubber.

[Magistrum]

How useful is rubber, barring the material properties for bending?

[Graknorke]

The joke is condoms.

[Magistrum]

The joke is condoms.

I really wanted to avoid someone saying that, but my plan went just as bad as possible.
I don't think getting them to inventing anti-conceptional methods would be hard, there are even some plants with those properties.

[wierd]

Contraceptive preparations are as old as antiquity.  In fact, it was one of the original prohibitions that Hippocrates made his order of physicians swear an oath against-- producing a poultice that causes abortions, or that inhibits conception.

    I swear by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius the surgeon, likewise Hygeia and Panacea, and call all the gods and goddesses to witness, that I will observe and keep this underwritten oath, to the utmost of my power and judgment.

    I will reverence my master who taught me the art. Equally with my parents, will I allow him things necessary for his support, and will consider his sons as brothers. I will teach them my art without reward or agreement; and I will impart all my acquirement, instructions, and whatever I know, to my master's children, as to my own; and likewise to all my pupils, who shall bind and tie themselves by a professional oath, but to none else.

    With regard to healing the sick, I will devise and order for them the best diet, according to my judgment and means; and I will take care that they suffer no hurt or damage.

    Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

    Further, I will comport myself and use my knowledge in a godly manner.

    I will not cut for the stone, but will commit that affair entirely to the surgeons.

    Whatsoever house I may enter, my visit shall be for the convenience and advantage of the patient; and I will willingly refrain from doing any injury or wrong from falsehood, and (in an especial manner) from acts of an amorous nature, whatever may be the rank of those who it may be my duty to cure, whether mistress or servant, bond or free.

    Whatever, in the course of my practice, I may see or hear (even when not invited), whatever I may happen to obtain knowledge of, if it be not proper to repeat it, I will keep sacred and secret within my own breast.
    If I faithfully observe this oath, may I thrive and prosper in my fortune and profession, and live in the estimation of posterity; or on breach thereof, may the reverse be my fate![4]

Really, knowledge of how to chemically induce abortion, and how to prevent fertility, has been around a VERY VERY long time.



As for synthesis of rubber from latex (sourced from many possible plant sources, INCLUDING dandelions), that is pretty straight forward. Basically, you mix the latex (the white juice from a latex producing plant, such as dandelion or rubber tree) with an acid. This causes the monomers in the latex to polymerize and form rubber. Many commercial rubbers use a sulfur based acid to do this, then treat the rubber with a vulcanizing process to harden the rubber.  Others mix the acidified latex with refined ammonia to halt the polymerizing process so that it can be painted onto surfaces. as the ammonia evaporates, the pH of the latex solution changes, and polymerization occurs.

This latter method would be of considerable value in a post-horror setting, since it would permit the creation of water tight bags from otherwise ordinary cloth reasonably easily. Ammonia is easily produced from urine, and the latex can be harvested with little processing from live plants using a sharp knife and a small ceramic saucer.  I already cited a natural source of citric acid, but hydrochloric acid can also be produced near effortlessly in industrial quantities from salt, using sulfuric acid.  Sulfuric acid can be produced in a very weak form by boiling sulfur with water, and in more concentrated form by burning sulfur (producing sulfur oxides), and bubbling the resulting fumes through water. Large quantities of sulfur (and thus, sulfur oxides) are present in most coal deposits. So, if you have access to surface coal, you more than likely will be able to produce concentrated sulfuric acid, and thus, concentrated hydrochloric acid.

[Baffler]

This latter method would be of considerable value in a post-horror setting, since it would permit the creation of water tight bags from otherwise ordinary cloth reasonably easily. Ammonia is easily produced from urine, and the latex can be harvested with little processing from live plants using a sharp knife and a small ceramic saucer.  I already cited a natural source of citric acid, but hydrochloric acid can also be produced near effortlessly in industrial quantities from salt, using sulfuric acid.  Sulfuric acid can be produced in a very weak form by boiling sulfur with water, and in more concentrated form by burning sulfur (producing sulfur oxides), and bubbling the resulting fumes through water. Large quantities of sulfur (and thus, sulfur oxides) are present in most coal deposits. So, if you have access to surface coal, you more than likely will be able to produce concentrated sulfuric acid, and thus, concentrated hydrochloric acid.

I don't see how we're going to be bubbling any fumes through anything without already having some glassware and rubber tubing, but the boiling method is fairly reliable, requiring only a vessel and a fire. Increasing the concentration is just a matter of letting most of the water boil off, and dumping several runs into one container. It'd be slow though, and we'd lose a lot of water. Especially considering we would probably have to have purified the water we use already to ensure it's properly clean.

In any case, there are more low-tech solutions to needing a condom. It was common practice in earlier days to make similar contraptions with lambskin or intestine. Or to use silphium, because that won't be extinct just yet.

[wierd]

Your imagination is limited.  Here, I will help you.

Glass does not require acids, nor does it require rubber.  All you need to make glass is a silica source, a pot furnace, and a flux (Salt and calcium carbonate are quite suitable.) in addition to the obvious need for fuel. 

You use this glass to blow a modified alembic and retort.  On the retort, you have a small opening to which you can affix a bellows. The long neck of the retort is fitted with wood cork at the end, and inserted into a modified alemic. This alembic is very tall and narrow.  The retort's neck droops like you would expect from a medival style of this device, but then angles sharply 90 degrees. The neck is sufficiently long that filling the alembic will not cause backflow of water into the retort.

You place raw sulfur into the retort, and distilled water into the alembic. You ignite the sulfur, then attach a bellows to the air intake hole on the retort.  You then pump air in viggorously.  This continues the combustion of the sulfur, producing fume.  The fume is routed through the neck of the retort into the bottom of the alembic via the 90 degree bend, and through the wood cork junction. Due to the small size of the aperature, the pressurized air disperses into a "spray" of bubbles in the distilled water. when then rise up through the tall cylendar like shape of the alembic.

All you need is thus glass (made from sand, salt, and limestone), woodcork, and a bellows (made from boiled leather and wood.) As I said, you can substitute coal for refined sulfur, you just wont get as clean an acid.

[Loud Whispers]

See, with smart people like that and stuff to write on/with (ya got fingers don't you) we'd be creating wikistones before long

[BoredVirulence]

I really don't see the argument that exponential population growth is going to happen while we're still struggling to feed them. I see the argument that a stable agriculture system specifically bread for producing high yields and being resistant disease, drought, frost, etc, would take time. I see the argument that without pressure population would increase exponentially. I don't see how a lack of food is not a pressure on the population. It also helps that many of us would come from a country with a stable population, we're used to and don't typically want a million kids at once.

I like to think that laws aren't needed here. If you barely have enough food for yourself and your children, why would you have another. I do think there is a need for contraceptives of some form, which is easily acquired as intestines, simply because our society isn't used to the idea of sex always meaning kids.

I don't see the problem. It looks fairly self correcting to me. If anything our population has a bottleneck in the beginning because of we likely have many more men than women. If anything we have a small enough population to be supported by foraging and hunting while we work on a massive irrigation system in a river valley. Maybe we don't have the right crops, but sheer bulk along with a lot of hunting should suffice while we do it. It doesn't take long for farmers to artificially select the best crops, maybe 100 years. Considering the bottleneck our population would have, I think we'd be fine.

Dammit, reading all of this stuff just makes me want to go out and try doing some of this stuff by hand. Sadly, I'd probably kill myself somehow in the process.

I bought large pieces of obsidian a few years ago to practice flintknapping. They're so sharp I've always been afraid to try.

[TempAcc]

I know nothing of flint knapping, but I have friends that started knapping using glass, like the bottom of beer bottles. Obsidian is probably rather scary to start with :v

The only thing you can make with beer bottle bottoms are arrow points, though, and maybe some itsy bitty knives.