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[taptap]

Currently the glass furnaces have

floodgate ... H
hatch cover ... G
floor grate ... l

in a carpenter / mason workshop it is a relatable

floodgate ... l
hatch cover ... H
floor grate ... G

All of the letters are available, it is just in the wrong order in the glass furnace. This seems to be a simple change of order adding a little confusion to an already complicated game. Or is this better reported as bug in the bug tracker?

---

Similarly it has

glass throne ... r

while c, which is used even in the mason workshop for rock thrones, is unused. Although c is used during the material selection.

[Salmeuk]

Small things like this I notice often, little inconsistencies within the internal logic of the U.I. that throw you for a loop. It would be easier to fix this than, say, rewrite the entire U.I., so we should list any other niggling issues in this thread.

The only one that comes to mind for me is the difference between designating a staircase to be dug vs. constructing that same staircase.

IIRC, 'D' --> 'i' is how you dig an up/down staircase, while
        'B' --> 'C' --> 'x' is how you construct that same staircase.



Now that I write it out it looks like a hilariously small issue to have, but in-game my muscle memory is regularly called upon and when it encounters this sort of issue it stops me to clarify wtf I should be pressing. Perhaps I'm the only one with this problem.

[Shonai_Dweller]

'f' to follow a dwarf is sometimes 'F'. Not too confusing but every inconsistency adds up.

[lethosor]

'f' to follow a dwarf is sometimes 'F'. Not too confusing but every inconsistency adds up.

I think the main issue there is that sometimes the 'follow' and 'forbid' keys can be used in the same menu (e.g. the 'k' menu).

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, there are FAR more glaring issues than just these.

Scroll up/down a menu?  Do you press 2 and 8 or do you press + and -?   Start pressing 2, and you're suddenly scrolling past the dwarf.  In menus where 2 DOES move the cursor, you're sometimes switching menus with +...

Probably the most absurd is how designating an up/down stair is "j", while constructing an up/down stair is "x".  Neither one makes sense on their own as a part of the "first letter is the hotkey" interface design philosophy the game generally adopts, as up/down stair contains neither x nor j.  X is used because the stair looks like an X, and J is used because it's close to i - downstair, which is close to u - upstair. 

The fundamental logic of the interface design is different between two menus aiming to accomplish what is a nearly identical game purpose.  Worse, it's not like those were added to the game years apart, they both came with the shift to 3d, so there's no real explainable reason why the design philosophy shifted between when Toady added digging stairs on Tuesday and adding constructing stairs on Thursday.  It's not like there's a reason you can't construct stairs with "j".

Rather than "interface improvements", this should really be called "Interface Consistency".  It pointlessly makes DF harder to get into, and costs nearly nothing to fix.

[taptap]

Rather than "interface improvements", this should really be called "Interface Consistency".  It pointlessly makes DF harder to get into, and costs nearly nothing to fix.

Your word in toady's ears. I am not stopping him reworking the interface and there are plenty of threads about it - but the question is as old as DF and we won't solve it here.

I would prefer to have this thread limited to low hanging fruit, i.e. clear improvement possibilities without interfering* with anything else, that are posted in all necessary detail - current state -> proposed state. Like the one in the glass furnace, that is obviously an error from changing the order of the items compared to other workshops, but keeping the letters in the old order.

* Pretty sure (u)p / (d)own / (x) was the default/preferred version, but (d) and (x) were already assigned to other things in the designation menu. So the only way to change it without interfering with anything else is changing the construction menu to (u) (i) (j) as well. I am pretty sure this has been proposed already, leading to discussions with people preferring udx on principle and ... We can sure propose it again.

[NW_Kohaku]

There's already a cost associated with memorizing specific hotkeys, anyway. 

Consider 'q'uery.  Nobody naturally thinks "I'd like to query that workshop to add some jobs to it!" But because it's something you hit all the time, and there isn't any conflicting lessons you need to learn, it's something you get used to. 

I mean, for most first and third-person games, people use WASD by default, but I use WESD, instead.  E is forward, D is back, S is left, and W is right.  It is harder to learn, yes, but putting all the keys on the two fingers in the middle means my pinky is free to hit shift or something.  Because of that, I hate anything that doesn't let me rearrange the default keys, as it's nearly impossible for me to unlearn what I've learned.  It doesn't make much sense from any standpoint but ergonomics, but the only reason WASD is used is because it's kinda the same shape as the arrow keys, and it's on the home keys.

It honestly doesn't matter what keys are used for what function, so long as they are used consistently.  x and d are already used in the designations menu, and so, even if the i and j don't fit in with the rest of the game's design philosophy, as long as every up/down stair uses 'j', we all get used to it.

[taptap]

Another small interface issue easy to tackle would be mechanism selection for links. If you build a lever or plate you get a reduced / expandable list of mechanisms in your fort, when making the links, however, you are stuck with selecting INDIVIDUAL mechanisms with no chance to reduce the list to mechanism types.

[Bumber]

I mean, for most first and third-person games, people use WASD by default, but I use WESD, instead.  E is forward, D is back, S is left, and W is right.  It is harder to learn, yes, but putting all the keys on the two fingers in the middle means my pinky is free to hit shift or something.  Because of that, I hate anything that doesn't let me rearrange the default keys, as it's nearly impossible for me to unlearn what I've learned.  It doesn't make much sense from any standpoint but ergonomics, but the only reason WASD is used is because it's kinda the same shape as the arrow keys, and it's on the home keys.

Personally, I shift my hand over from the home keys and rest my pinky on shift. My middle finger controls W and S. It is the longest finger, after all.

[Sizik]

I mean, for most first and third-person games, people use WASD by default, but I use WESD, instead.  E is forward, D is back, S is left, and W is right.  It is harder to learn, yes, but putting all the keys on the two fingers in the middle means my pinky is free to hit shift or something.  Because of that, I hate anything that doesn't let me rearrange the default keys, as it's nearly impossible for me to unlearn what I've learned.  It doesn't make much sense from any standpoint but ergonomics, but the only reason WASD is used is because it's kinda the same shape as the arrow keys, and it's on the home keys.

Personally, I shift my hand over from the home keys and rest my pinky on shift. My middle finger controls W and S. It is the longest finger, after all.

Yeah, index finger should go on D, middle on W (moving to S when necessary), and ring finger on A. This leaves the pinky naturally resting on Shift and the thumb on the spacebar.

[Shazbot]

Glorious ESDF master race sneers at crippled peasants unable to use six weapon slots or Q A and Z as additional action keys independent of movement fingers. Tribes 2 showed us the way! Repent!

[LordBaal]

Then I propose you make a master list on the OP of all the UI issues that are similar and require a simple swap for fixing to make Toady life easier the moment he gets around fixing it (if he does).

[Bumber]

Then I propose you make a master list on the OP of all the UI issues that are similar and require a simple swap for fixing to make Toady life easier the moment he gets around fixing it (if he does).

I think we have a thread to that effect: Streamlining Interface and Hotkeys

[Starver]

Now that I write it out it looks like a hilariously small issue to have, but in-game my muscle memory is regularly called upon and when it encounters this sort of issue it stops me to clarify wtf I should be pressing. Perhaps I'm the only one with this problem.

Yes/No.

The trouble being that while it might take a little longer to work out that the whole issue of relates to what (the inconsistency of the up-down staircase across sub-dialogues also cross-pollinates with the inconsistency of the floodgate across different sub-dialogues, etc etc), muscle memory is marvellously capable thing.

Have you ever tried to control a digger jib (body rotate, shoulder angle, elbow angle, wrist angle and bucket scoop) with two joysticks, one per hand, both operating two motions by their respective X/Ys, or however this particular model is set up)? It takes getting used to (especially when there are differences), with one joy-left/right being rotate byut the other joy left/right being scoop/unscoop, and then there's the foot controls, but after a while the whole vehicle is an extension.  Until you move to another

And though I can't be sure (I took a short break from DF, arising from hardware migration issues), I'm fairly sure that the carved fortifications has changed.  My fingers still want to do (d)esignate c(a)rved, I'm sure, but now it seems to be (d)esignate (F)ortification.

(Which at least is now more consistent with (b)uild (C)onstruction (F)ortification.)  It seems to have been changed to allow (a) to multi-toggle the all-or-gem/ore-or-gem behaviour (although I've yet to work out the mnemonic behind this, so it was probably applied after the decision to standardise Fortification carving towards 'F'.)

Anyway, I find it awkward.  Not that I (d)(F) that much, which is perhaps why I've not had enough practice to change my own unconscious muscle-memory.



Not that I wouldn't mind more cross-menu consistency, but it would play havoc on my playing spontaneity for a while.  Consider it similar to the Qwerty/Dvorak transition argument, for typists.  (Well, except for the "Qwerty deliberately slows you down" thing, which is just plain wrong.)

[lethosor]

I'm pretty sure d-a for fortifications was changed to d-F when auto-mining was added in 0.40.20.