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[Henny]

I'll probably mod out plant drunks.

Plants aren't humans. Basing their biochemistry and relationships on human models is illogical, and makes the game feel less unique.

I edited this post to make sense.

[k33n]

I'll probably mod out dwarven drunks.

Dwarves aren't humans. Basing their biochemistry and relationships on human models is illogical, and makes the game feel less unique.

I agree. I'll wait to judge, but it seems like this is a huge step in the wrong direction.

[§k]

GCS venom can't harm GCS; alcohol can't harm dwarf.

[Calidovi]

GCS venom can't harm GCS; alcohol can't harm dwarf.

I can't wait for the next patch where dwarves biologically produce alcohol.

[k33n]

The entire quirk was that dwarfs were drunken when they didn't drink. This new direction feels bland.

[NW_Kohaku]

GCS venom can't harm GCS; alcohol can't harm dwarf.

I know that such things are common in games, including this one, but generally speaking, this sort of thinking is wrong. 

Many creatures are not actually immune to their own venom, (at least, everywhere outside their venom sacs and delivery mechanisms,) and for that matter, spiders are fully capable of getting caught in their own webs if they step on the wrong threads.  (They just selectively apply the adhesive and remember where to stand.)

[Calidovi]

GCS venom can't harm GCS; alcohol can't harm dwarf.

I know that such things are common in games, including this one, but generally speaking, this sort of thinking is wrong. 

Many creatures are not actually immune to their own venom, (at least, everywhere outside their venom sacs and delivery mechanisms,) and for that matter, spiders are fully capable of getting caught in their own webs if they step on the wrong threads.  (They just selectively apply the adhesive and remember where to stand.)

Snake venom is a tricky one, though. Experimentally, cobras don't experience some of the lethal effects their venom produces (allowing one to assume that there is some enzyme component or whatnot in their blood), but based on known biology snakes are or should be completely susceptible to the dehabilitating effects of their own venom. Not sure about how easy it is for spiders to get caught in their own web though.

[Vattic]

I find the image of drunken dwarven feasts evocative.

I never interpreted dwarves slowing down without booze as them getting drunk (like the robots in Futurama). I figured they were getting awful withdrawals and were being moody. Was Toady ever explicit about what was going on here?

[vjmdhzgr]

I find the image of drunken dwarven feasts evocative.

I never interpreted dwarves slowing down without booze as them getting drunk (like the robots in Futurama). I figured they were getting awful withdrawals and were being moody. Was Toady ever explicit about what was going on here?

Well there is some in-game evidence to suggest that they're all just alcoholics, probably due to being given alcohol to drink as children. That's probably why they're so short too, all the alcohol stops them from growing fully. Then they live underground to avoid all the bright lights outside in case they ever become sober. And they're all known for their beards because they're just too drunk to shave without cutting themselves. I think I've just figured out dwarves.

Anyway, the evidence I was talking about is that when a creature who isn't [ALCOHOL_DEPENDANT] gets to the state of doesn't care about anything anymore, they get the can't get through the day without alcohol or whatever. Basically implying they become alcoholics because they're just exposed to death constanTLY and stop caring. They also slow down like dwarves without alcohol in case I didn't say that clearly enough yet.

[Naryar]

Why the hell would dwarves drink only alcohol (including likely very strong "dwarven rum" or "swamp whiskey" or "river spirits" alcohol) if they never got buzzed off by it ?  Else they would drink light beer (with this thing about water being unhealthy in the Middle Ages), or water with no issues.

I think they have just seriously increased alcohol tolerance. Like a whole bottle of standard wine is to them what a glass of wine is to us humans. Maybe they don't get hangovers, although it is weird to introduce a whole civilization who is fond of drink without introducing all the inebriation tropes and the hangovers and everything that has to do with alcohol.

[Vattic]

Anyway, the evidence I was talking about is that when a creature who isn't [ALCOHOL_DEPENDANT] gets to the state of doesn't care about anything anymore, they get the can't get through the day without alcohol or whatever. Basically implying they become alcoholics because they're just exposed to death constanTLY and stop caring. They also slow down like dwarves without alcohol in case I didn't say that clearly enough yet.

I didn't know this was the case; Must have failed to notice in my non-dwarf forts, or that is a newer feature.

[Ghills]

The entire quirk was that dwarfs were drunken when they didn't drink. This new direction feels bland.

Yes, this.  DF being unique is what makes it interesting.  If we're losing the satirish flavor of SERIUS DORFS than I might as well go play any of the umpteen games that do a better job of simulation and have a usable interface.

[Ghills]

I find the image of drunken dwarven feasts evocative.

I never interpreted dwarves slowing down without booze as them getting drunk (like the robots in Futurama). I figured they were getting awful withdrawals and were being moody. Was Toady ever explicit about what was going on here?

It doesn't go away so it's not withdrawal. That would end as the body adjusts to a new normal.

[vjmdhzgr]

umpteen games that do a better job of simulation

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Anyway, if the only thing that makes dwarf fortress better than any of the attempts to copy it to you, is that dwarves don't get drunk, then I think you're playing dwarf fortress wrong.

[Vattic]

I find the image of drunken dwarven feasts evocative.

I never interpreted dwarves slowing down without booze as them getting drunk (like the robots in Futurama). I figured they were getting awful withdrawals and were being moody. Was Toady ever explicit about what was going on here?

It doesn't go away so it's not withdrawal. That would end as the body adjusts to a new normal.

Withdrawals were just the first thing to come to mind. I figured they were very abstracted and unrealistic (would expect vomiting at least and even death given the length of the addiction). Really it was just a game mechanic to force the player to supply booze (not original in city building games). My main point was that dwarves getting drunk when dry was, unless I am mistaken, a fan explanation (not that I don't enjoy the fan culture around DF).

A more fitting explanation might be that dwarves expect booze on tap and become glum when it's not. Perhaps it's more like lubricant in the machine and without it they find it hard to get on (like real addicts can even after they quit). Both would also help explain the mentally scarred humans/elves/goblins needing booze in the same way. Doing a bit of searching it seems like Toady always planned to have dwarves get drunk from drinking (with drinking songs perhaps).

Right now the alcoholic dwarves work slower, become depressed, then either beat up their friends or jump in the river.

Oh, sorry.  The effects above were for a dwarf that gets no booze.  Although I imagine a drunken dwarf might act much the same way...  except the dwarf might not be depressed...  I need a random drinking song generator...

I wonder if these quoted posts are what gave the impression that dwarves get drunk without booze. I read them to mean there are similarities between the two states in that they get slower, more violent, and careless/self destructive.