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Author Topic: Weapons Grade Ethanol  (Read 1147 times)

AceSV

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Weapons Grade Ethanol
« on: June 11, 2015, 07:32:52 pm »

I read somewhere that Toady might one day add explosions the game mechanics of Dwarf Fortress.  This would be likely be related to the development of gunpowder, but there's another, dwarfier substance that also explodes, Ethanol, or as we've come to call it, booze.  Most alcoholic beverages contain water, but in pure form, ethanol is very explody.  The more times an alcoholic beverage is distilled, the higher its alcohol content becomes, eventually reaching a point where it can explode. 

Some very energetic ethanol reactions:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTwz6FGobCA  You can imagine some medieval peasants screaming "witchcraft!" 

Now, unfortunately, I'm not well versed in the field of historical chemistry, so I don't know how high a proof could be distilled with pre 1400 technology.  Some of these proposals may be completely anachronistic.  With a little modern knowledge, we know that explosives like ethanol can be used for many things:

Explosives:  First of all, simply let the thing explode.  This creates a shockwave in all directions, and in the case of ethanol, would probably result in flames as well.  The explosion could be combined with a shrapnel creating shell to make a grenade. 

Incendiaries:  Ethanol is very flammable and could simply be lit on fire.  Fire breathers in circus acts use or used ethanol to make flames.  Or dwarves (or sieges) could tie an ethanol soaked cloth to an arrow and light it on fire before shooting. 

Cannons:  Ethanol does not have the explosive power of gunpowder, but could nonetheless be used to propel objects like a cannon does.  This is also a little more complicated for ethanol because ethanol is not a solid, it would require a complicated loading mechanism. 

Rockets:  Similar idea to cannons, an ethanol explosion could be used to propel the object containing the explosion.  Modern humans build recreational ethanol rockets out of plastic bottles, however, I don't know if there would be a suitable substance that dwarves could use.  Possibly glass, though even that might be too heavy. 

Engines:  Ethanol can do almost anything that gasoline can do, in fact the Model T was designed to run on either gasoline or ethanol.  In Dwarf Fortress, you might be able to make an ethanol power source instead of water wheels or windmills. 

Fuel:  Finally, ethanol could simply be used to heat things up, like charcoal.  Admittedly, this is more complicated than using solid fuel. 

Ethanol powered tools would need to be built differently than gunpowder based tools, because ethanol explosions rely on stoichiometry, mixing ethanol fuels with atmospheric oxygen.  I'm not prepared to explain how this works, but if you've seen Mythbusters, there are a lot of experiments that rely on proper stoichiometric ratios to work. 



This proposal should have more scientific backing than I can muster before taking off. 
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Alfrodo

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Re: Weapons Grade Ethanol
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 08:44:52 pm »

Explosives: YES

Incendiaries: You are forgetting a much more practical use. but yes.

Cannons: I can see that working. but ehh...

Rockets: No.  That just doesn't fit.  Also I think plastic weighs more than candy.  I don't think it'd be that practical, either.

Engines: No. 1400

Fuel: ehh.. Might make things very complicated.

I think toady might have had this in mind with innovations, If I recall correctly, he mentioned Chemistry.  So ethanol would probably in there.

You also forgot the most awesome use of it.

Booze.

Also I'm assuming it will be stored in barrels?
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Pearofclubs

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Re: Weapons Grade Ethanol
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 10:47:31 am »

I can't imagine any reason why dwarves would be unable to produce near-pure ethanol with their current technology. Even taking the liquor and passing it through the still again a couple times would yield a really high alcohol content.

But the real reason why they'd be able to produce it lies in the skill alchemy.
Alembics, a tool used explicitly for alchemical distillation, existed in the age the Dwarf fortress is intended to represent. Through distillation, whether by means of fractional crystallization (freezing distillation) or using heat and an alembic, the concentration can reach(but not exceed) 95.6% ethanol. Enough to be violently flammable maybe even explosive (not sure).

So it's definitely plausible, given the era that DF is meant to mimic.
It's more a matter of whether or not the direction is one that Toady wants to take.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 10:49:26 am by Pearofclubs »
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Vattic

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Re: Weapons Grade Ethanol
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 01:24:40 pm »

According to the Wikipedia article on distilled beverages distillation is period appropriate; The earliest mention of what must be 95% pure ethanol is from the 16th century (1501 - 1600). Then again the article on ethanol says the earliest mention of absolute alcohol was from someone who died in the early 12th century.

I'm not convinced ethanol would make a practical explosive. To get an explosion you need to contain a material that burns fast with an oxidant. The containment is necessary to allow the fire to raise the pressure enough for an explosion (think of lit gunpowder in a keg vs open to the air). In the video you link they are imperfectly compressing ethanol in a bottle to direct the pressure and using oxygen in the air as the oxidant. With gunpowder the saltpetre is the oxidant which means you can contain it easily. Ethanol being both a liquid and not coming with an oxidant can't be so easily contained as gunpowder. I'm not even sure how explosive ethanol is compared against gunpowder.

Incendiaries: Pure ethanol probably wouldn't be so good for this as according to the Wikipedia article on distilled beverages you can light a cloth soaked in it without damage to the cloth. Less pure alcohol makes sense along with greek fire, burning pitch, and similar.

China had gunpowder cannons in time, but Toady is wary of guns. Still I hope once he has ships he'll consider cannons.

Ethanol rockets could probably be constructed with waxed paper or leather, but I can't see them being used beyond as a novelty.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 06:42:14 pm by Vattic »
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Bumber

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Re: Weapons Grade Ethanol
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 09:42:42 pm »

China had gunpowder cannons in time, but Toady is wary of guns. Still I hope once he has ships he'll consider cannons.
Ballistae would work just as well, really.
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AceSV

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Re: Weapons Grade Ethanol
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2015, 08:41:02 am »

Well I know ethanol is not as good of an explosive as the ones we really use, and would have properties more like gasoline rather than gunpowder or dynamite.  At best, it's going to make fiery explosions instead of concussive ones.  However, I think that is good for this game.  If dwarves are lobbing gunpowder grenades and mining with sticks of dynamite, it's not meso-fantasy Dwarf Fortress anymore.  The fact than an ethanol explosive is limited in usefulness should prevent it from ruining the game. 

Not to mention, it's widely assumed that booze stockpiles can explode, but to my knowledge, this does not actually happen. 

I think the rocket is the best practical use for ethanol explosions.  The dreaded Nazi V2 used ethanol fuel because of Germany's oil shortage.  But as you point out, the trick is finding a period-appropriate oxidizer.  I think Nitrous Oxide/Laughing Gas was a popular oxidizer, but I don't think that's medieval. 



There might be some kind of chemical that could be added to ethanol to increase its explosive potential.  I thought I'd check if lye-ethanol mixtures were a thing, since that would be easiest, and saw that methanol and lye (and vegetable oil) can be used to make home-made biodiesel.  Methanol is in something of a grey area for period appropriateness.  Ancient Egyptians used methanol among other things in their embalming process, but pure methanol was first isolated in 1661.  Methanol is a byproduct of making charcoal, which means the chief ingredients of biodiesel are all currently producible in Dwarf Fortress. 
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