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[Wimopy]

I've seen the topic come up in the European politics thread and I'm sure people have talked about it quite a few times, so I'm making a thread where people can come together and talk about their experiences with foreigners in their countries.

So, questions you can use for your discussion, in no particular order:
Do you think migration (any form) is a problem? Why? How? -Important: Don't go into solutions. That's not the point of this topic.
What nationality are most immigrants in your country?
Are job opportunities threatened by refugees?
Do you think/know they pose a safety issue?
If you have met any of them, what did they seem like?
Are they integrating?
Is emigration a problem in your country?
Where do people generally go if it is prevalent?

I can add more questions here if any come up. However, I'd like to ask people a few things:
-RULES-

• No racism. It's a forum guideline by default, but I think the topic warrants a second mention.
• Discuss, but don't go into heated arguments. We're going for opinions and personal experience here, so it may vary from person to person. There's no point in trying to enforce your own opinion on another, though you may discuss it and see if your points of view can be combined to give a better picture.
• Refrain from politics. It's okay to give a mention of how the government is acting, but don't go too much into it. There're other threads for that and it isn't the point of this topic.
• You don't have to be entirely politically correct, so long as you are not being offensive. You may call African Americans 'black', but not other, offensive terms. Just clarify who you mean. In this case, 'black' may mean African immigrants, African Americans or maybe even something else.
• In light of Toady having to clean the thread, I'd like to reinforce: No cursing, no swearing. Don't go into heated arguments. If you feel someone is wrong, correct them calmly or not at all. This is a simple discussion, no one is intending to cause any harm, so there's no need to take anything too seriously.

Hopefully, we can keep this all nice and civil without having to call Toady or ThreeToe. If you see any problems though, just notify the other first or report their post if you feel like it. Don't go starting a flame war.

Now, here's how I see it: Migration is definitely causing a problem. I live in Hungary, where it's become a heated discussion in politics and, consequently, general life. At this point, it's half political conflict, but still, it is quite heavily debated. As a country on the border of the EU, we have a number of refugees and immigrants coming in, legally and illegally, which is causing tensions to rise. Typically, they leave for the west, but they still live here in refugee camps for a time.

Unfortunately, I don't know how much of a safety issue they cause or not, as accounts even next to the refugee camps vary wildly. That's one of the reasons why I started this thread. I'd like to hear of first- or second-hand accounts of what you see of immigrants in your area.
However, I have been abroad a lot. Italy definitely has a huge number of Africans, Germany has Turks, the UK has a large mix. I don't think they're responsible for unemployment though (well, except for when they are the unemployed).
Safety-wise, they definitely do commit crimes. Now, I've heard of them causing a 'rape epidemic' in Sweden, but I wouldn't know much about that. However, I think they cause an increase in crime for a simple reason: They are a poor minority, who are also looked down upon by many in their host country.
Poorer people are always more susceptible to influence by crime syndicates or stealing simply because they have few other options. Add to this that they must face many xenophobes or racists, who categorise them and provoke them and they may find no options but to become who they are thought to be. I may be wrong here though.

Emigration is another concern. Lots of young people (and older ones too, but mainly young people) go abroad, mostly to the UK, Germany or Austria, in hopes of a better life. I've got more personal experience in this, since I'm also planning to attend university in the UK, which also means I'll be spending a minimum of about a decade there, foreseeably and even on only the IELTS exam I met lots of people who are planning the same. This is part of the reason why Hungary's population is declining.

My personal reasons are: Hungary is unstable politically and I feel threatened by what the various governments do. I know politicians aren't much better elsewhere, but I'd rather learn somewhere where politics has less of an influence on education.
Another reason is simply because of better financial possibilities. I applied for Physics, which doesn't seem to be too good back here.
Then there's the fact that I used to live in the UK, so returning has always been a dream.

Yeah, I think that's that. Hopefully that gives a nice picture of what we can discuss here and I didn't contradict my own rules.
I'm quite interested in what the various opinions or people here are, though since most people are liberal-minded (based on the "Let's be XX!" thread's political survey thingy), we might see quite a few shared ideas.

Oh, and allusion to Dwarf Fortress:
We all know what a migrant wave entails. We need to feed more people. We need to house more people. They lower our FPS. There might be vampires among them. However, they can also be put to work on fields. They might do jobs that we didn't have people for. It's a mixed bag. And we don't even have to deal with various cultures. Well.. maybe if spiritual needs arise, we'll need to build temples for every god, which'll be a pain.

So yeah, DF players may have a tiny bit of a clearer picture on migration. Anyways, opinions?

P.S.: I really shouldn't do long posts, I think I start slipping all over the place. I hope at least the thread turns out okay and useful/constructive/enlightening.

[Frumple]

So, questions you can use for your discussion, in no particular order:

US critter chiming in, because lists of questions are appealing to my brain at six in the morning.

Do you think migration (any form) is a problem?

About the only form that's a problem in and of it itself is invasion, insofar as I've noticed. Reactions to migrations (i.e. the natives being jackasses about it) tend to be an issue more than the migration itself, from everything I've actually seen. When the natives work to help mitigate whatever problems may crop up, instead of acerbating or creating them, things seem to go pretty smoothly. Who'da thunk, eh?

What nationality are most immigrants in your country?

General cultural perspective would definitely be some variety of central or south american. Looking at the numbers, about 2/3rds of the foreign born population back in 2010 was some sort of latin american, so said perspective's view is actually statistically accurate. Mind you, that means that roughly one in three foreign born folks in the US aren't from down south, so there's still a pretty significant population from other areas.

Are job opportunities threatened by refugees?

As a rule, no. More people means more jobs, not less. Last I checked immigration is almost always a net job provider when someone in the native population doesn't have their head stuck up their arse. More bodies mean more things needed and more things able to be done. If you're not getting more out of that than the alternative the problem probably isn't the immigrants.

Do you think/know they pose a safety issue?

No more than anyone in similar circumstances. Immigrants in general are also a diverse lot, so painting them with a universal brush in regards to that sort of thing is... inefficient.

If you have met any of them, what did they seem like?

M'in florida, of course I have. Both latin american and cross-ocean. They were people. Sometimes there was an accent. That was about it.

Are they integrating?

Sure. People adapt to their surroundings. Complete cultural assimilation, usually not, but we don't exactly have folks from down south building ziggurats or something going on.

Is emigration a problem in your country?

Outside some crazies wailing about brain drain (nevermind the US is massively benefited from that going towards us), nope. Interestingly enough, emigration is usually a net benefit for everyone involved, too, last I checked. Benefits all countries involved over the long run, providing one of them isn't an utter shithole (and sometimes, then, too). Turns out when you've got folks moving between countries and with connections and whatnot between both, things tend to turn out better on the net. It's almost like relatively free circulation of ideas and resources can have benefits :V

Where do people generally go if it is prevalent?

Wherever the opportunity's available and the applicable bigotry is sufficiently low. Same as pretty much anyone, really. Immigrants, even the refugees from down south or some of the worse island nations, aren't some kind of strange Other whose ways are mysterious and unfathomable. They're people, sometimes having a bit of trouble, sometimes not. Act like just about anyone, settle like anyone else would.

[Sheb]

PTW.

[ChairmanPoo]

I plan to leave for the UK ASAP. My country is a mess and I have small hopes of getting a job that is not precariois and poorly paid, let alone one that helps boost my career.

[Sheb]

I quite like to go abroad. Not that I don't like Belgium, but staying here forever is a bit... provincial? I'm really glad that I'm from a rich country and as such can go pretty much anywhere.

[Loud Whispers]

So, questions you can use for your discussion, in no particular order:
Do you think migration (any form) is a problem? Why? How?

Migration is a problem in the sense that water is a problem. It's a very broad topic, with the context being incredibly important - water isn't inherently evil, but too much will drown you and too little will leave you parched.

What nationality are most immigrants in your country?

My country is the UK, and we have a wide range of migrants from all across the commonwealth, Europe and East Asia, from a wide range of social backgrounds too. India, Ireland, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Jamaica, South Africa, Kenya, Hong Kong, France and Australia immediately come to mind. Where the most immigrants come from can be split down in area since they usually end up in enclaves, like south asians in Whitechapel or Frenchies in west end. I can also say a few things about Malaysia, where the majority of migrants are from neighbouring Indonesia or China just a bit north, though they also have been under the spotlight for being the destination for many boat refugees.

Are job opportunities threatened by refugees?

You'd have to let in a hell of a lot of refugees before that happened. That's a problem for countries neighbouring the middle east or countries like Spain and Italy, for most nations, this should not be an immediate worry.

Do you think/know they pose a safety issue?

Yes and yes. I've had friendly chats with a man preaching on behalf of ISIS on Oxford street with his family and friends, they're already here.

If you have met any of them, what did they seem like?

All right people who other than their absolute disrespect for western, secular humanist values seem ok.

Are they integrating?

Some are, some aren't, some are actively subverting Britain.

Is emigration a problem in your country?

No.

Where do people generally go if it is prevalent?

Depends; my borough is a perfect example of this. Rich Qataris and Chinese immigrants are kicking out poor Afro-Caribbean and south-Asian immigrants, and this is in turn driving poor Afro-Caribbean and south-Asian immigrants into outer London zones into the areas where the poor English are (with them having already been driven out of zone 2 prior to this) and it's somewhat disconcerting to see successive waves of demographic changes wiping out anything of cultural value day by day.

[TempAcc]

Pretty much what Loud Whispers said. Migration is not a problem in itself, but too much of it does cause several problems, yes, both for the hosting country and the migrants. I know an indonesian person from a family that legally immigrated to hungary and have lived there since, and now works in italy. She's often unjustly criticized for being critical of immigration, but thats because most of the "refugee" business we're witness is just plain illegal immigration. It is easy to understand her point, since it is quite offensive to legal immigrants to give illegal immigrants the same rights as them, with none of the requirements met, the same way as it is offensive to treat every migrant as an illegal.

We must not minimize the negative effects of illegal immigration. It is in fact very harmful for either parties, usualy, since the hosting country has to actualy find out who's illegal, deal with onerous deportation processes and costs, while at the same time somehow assuring they're not subjected to subhuman conditions, while also dealing with the negative social and economic effects they bring (suddenly the population density in an area increases in an uncontrollable manner, with people who usualy have no identification documents, and may cause unforeseen problems due to culture shock, increased food consumption, crime, etc). Of course, the immigrants are also very vulnerable to organized crime, which is a major problem in italy, that has a huge organized illegal prostitution problem (prostitution isn't illegal by itself in italy, but brothels and pimping are).

It may not be a big problem in huge countries like amuuuuurica, but it certainly a significant issues in many european states, mainly Italy (and Malta), Spain and France. Also sweden and finland, to a lesser extent.

Migration is not a problem, illegal migration is certainly a problem.

[ChairmanPoo]

BTW I dont think job opportunities are threatened by immigrants in Spain. Most of the jobs to which immigrants opt to tend to be menial, with poor pay (to the point of unprofitability for the worker unless your living standards are really low), and excess work hours (almost universally beyond the legal limit, and far more than they have signed to... assuming, that is, that they have any formal work contract. All too often they dont have even that... which is illegal but many immigrants dont know they have legal resources against that).   As such, most Spaniards don't even consider taking them (they're not even an option, really... as I said, the slave wages from those jobs dont get anywhere near the needs of a normal family).

The problem in Spain is more related towards scant job openings in qualified jobs, and short duration and poor pay for those that do appear. In less than a year I'll be a certified specialist physician, yet I know that around here I'd get short term contracts in small countryside hospitals, if I got lucky. Even if somehow I managed to get a permanent or semipermanent position, I'd be routinedly overworked (as most if not all hospitals are either understaffed, poorly managed, or both), for the lowest salary -relative to cost of living- in the Western world, as far as doctors are concerned.
No way I'm staying under those circumstances. I'm either migrating, signing up for Big Pharma, or both.

I'm hardly alone either. Since the beginning of the recession the number of migration certificates expended by our GMC equivalent has grown steadily every year.

[Sheb]

Yeah, the way we manage immigration in Europe is a problem.

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah, the way we manage immigration in Europe is a problem.

Yeah, the problem is we don't at all.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The United States of America is the single largest destination for immigrants in the world, with an immigrant population of approximately 45 million out of 315 million total residents. This constitutes 20% of all immigration and the runner-up is the Russian Federation, at a paltry 11 million. About one million people immigrate to the USA every year, though this number has gone down from a previous peak of 1.5 million.

Gallup has found that approximately 150 million people worldwide would choose to immigrate to the United States if given the opportunity.

[Wimopy]

Very nice to see slightly conflicting ideas between the UK and the US.

And yes, I understand some questions I wrote were a bit too general. Feel free to elaborate your answer or rephrase the question into something a bit more specific. (Let's say from "Do you think migration (any form) is a problem?" to "How much of a concern is illegal immigration for you?")

I was also thinking that jobs aren't threatened by immigrants (I mean, you see foreigners as hotel receptionists, store clerks or doing cleaning/whatever jobs in the UK, not high-pay jobs that require a lot of qualifications). The problem is, when the discussion usually comes up here, it's either "They go on west anyway", "They're not even working, just living off benefits" or "They are taking all our jobs, because they do the same for less".

Illegal immigration does seem to be on the rise nowadays and it definitely causes a real headache for the governments. Try to stick to effects on the average person though, for now. We can change the topic to how it all should be handled later on.

Oh, and I'd definitely add to the case of Hungary that there's a very vocal group who has problems with immigrants, though I can't quite decide if the 'pro' or 'contra' group is larger. I'm expecting it's similar elsewhere.

Seems like America's "land of dreams" fame hasn't fallen too much, despite the terror attacks and all. I'm a bit surprised with Russia though.

[Loud Whispers]

Very nice to see slightly conflicting ideas between the UK and the US.

USA's a big fucking continent on its own; their infrastructure can handle a growing population. Differences in geography will determine differences in policies; take Australia for example. Big country, but most of it is desert. They can't handle immigration, unlike say, a country in the fertile tropics with a shit ton of room for development like Brazil. And that's just thinking about immigration in terms of practicality and limits, that's not even going into ethnic and cultural identity, economic and political consequences of immigration/mass immigration/uncontrolled immigration/controlled immigration/illegal immigration e.t.c.

And yes, I understand some questions I wrote were a bit too general. Feel free to elaborate your answer or rephrase the question into something a bit more specific. (Let's say from "Do you think migration (any form) is a problem?" to "How much of a concern is illegal immigration for you?")

It's ok if the questions are general, the discussion will naturally develop.

I was also thinking that jobs aren't threatened by immigrants (I mean, you see foreigners as hotel receptionists, store clerks or doing cleaning/whatever jobs in the UK, not high-pay jobs that require a lot of qualifications). The problem is, when the discussion usually comes up here, it's either "They go on west anyway", "They're not even working, just living off benefits" or "They are taking all our jobs, because they do the same for less".

I was saying that jobs aren't threatened by refugees, I wasn't saying jobs aren't threatened by immigrants. In the UK especially, the average wage has not been driven down much by mass immigration, with the result being that business owners and land owners have been able to maximize profits with a pool of cheap labour to exploit. This has had an effect however, on the already low-paid unskilled to semi-unskilled services sector; one can hire a Vietnamese builder to do a loft conversion hundreds of pounds cheaper than if they hired a British labourer. Perhaps the hardest hit by mass immigration are immigrants themselves, whose skill sets can be easily substituted for new and less-expensive to hire immigrants. This merely exacerbates class divides in the UK, with the creation of three new underclasses :/
Oh and the whole immigrants living off of benefits thing, 395,000 immigrants are currently claiming work benefits in the UK. Sounds large, is large, but it pales in comparison to the 4,900,000 Britons doing the same. It isn't *really* a big deal, and I suspect the reason why it keeps popping up in arguments is because there continue to be outrageous idiots who love popping up in the news to proudly boast of how little they work and how much they get paid for not doing it. The result being that these buffoons are ingrained much more powerfully in the consciousness of the public than a more reasonable, but much less exciting worry.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/social-issues-migration-health/international-migration-outlook-2013_migr_outlook-2013-en#page161
Graph from page 161

Namely being that because there is no control, we do end up taking in mostly people who will pay much less in taxes than other younger migrants. Switzerland and Luxembourg are notably benefiting from immigration, because they control their borders (though the EU is still bloody cross at them for it) to only let in those who benefit their nations.

Illegal immigration does seem to be on the rise nowadays and it definitely causes a real headache for the governments. Try to stick to effects on the average person though, for now. We can change the topic to how it all should be handled later on.

Who's the average person though? London doesn't do averages well.

Oh, and I'd definitely add to the case of Hungary that there's a very vocal group who has problems with immigrants, though I can't quite decide if the 'pro' or 'contra' group is larger. I'm expecting it's similar elsewhere.
Seems like America's "land of dreams" fame hasn't fallen too much, despite the terror attacks and all. I'm a bit surprised with Russia though.

I wonder if Obama's policies have boosted America's image as the multicultural land of the industrious, self-invented man? What with his whole attempt to naturalize illegal immigrants who have already lived in America for a decent bit?
It could just also be that idea that the grass is greener on the other side. See a lot of movies detailing how America is all sun, partying, money and explosions across the world, while China's propaganda efforts barely cross the Indian Ocean or the Pacific Ocean, you're going to pick the former and not the latter as your dream home.

[Sheb]

I don't think the USA's size is that relevant. It's not like we're lacking physical space to house migrants, or anyone think overpopulation is really a problem, or we'd see policy designed to reduce the number of children by natives as well. I think the more positive attitudes in the US are simply due to the fact that so much of the population is descended from immigrants or are immigrants themselves. I mean, what percentage of the population doesn't have at least one grandparent that was born abroad?

The idea of the American dream, that hard working people can make it probably help as well. And finally, the awful social safety net means "They're coming to steal our benefits" is much less of an issue.

As for your table, Luxembourg is a EU member like any other, but it has a outsized banking sector, so I guess a lot of immigrants there are actually finance professionals. But I'd be wary of those numbers: they don't have error ranges, and my guess would be that all you can say for most countries is "It doesn't have much of an impact, one way or another".

[Loud Whispers]

I don't think the USA's size is that relevant. It's not like we're lacking physical space to house migrants, or anyone think overpopulation is really a problem, or we'd see policy designed to reduce the number of children by natives as well.

USA's size is relevant, it has its own wealth of gas reserves, capital, natural resources, freshwater, plenty of housing, recreational facilities; with only its healthcare and public transit falling short. In the UK we have a housing crisis, education crisis (specifically relating to overcrowded classrooms), have immense strain on our aging sewage systems and the reason why there is no policy to reduce the number of children in native families is because their families are small to begin with. 84% of all British population growth is a result of immigrating families being far larger than British families. The policy to reduce births in British families would be to do nothing, because Britain's population would be declining without mass immigration and the next generations would be able to enjoy greater wealth and a less-burdened country. They tend to have 1 kid per family.

I think the more positive attitudes in the US are simply due to the fact that so much of the population is descended from immigrants or are immigrants themselves. I mean, what percentage of the population doesn't have at least one grandparent that was born abroad?

They do not hold a monopoly on being a nation of migrants. Just about every nation that was on the silk road can say the same. And they aren't nearly as popular as the USA.

The idea of the American dream, that hard working people can make it probably help as well. And finally, the awful social safety net means "They're coming to steal our benefits" is much less of an issue.
As for your table, Luxembourg is a EU member like any other, but it has a outsized banking sector, so I guess a lot of immigrants there are actually finance professionals. But I'd be wary of those numbers: they don't have error ranges, and my guess would be that all you can say for most countries is "It doesn't have much of an impact, one way or another".

*Economic impact. Which is notable especially, when considering that mass immigration was championed under labour to their public support as economically essential to the nation when as the decade passed, the evidence suggested the economic effect was either negligible as you say, or harmful as the report says. The impact itself has been great to the country.