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[forsaken1111]

Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708

I'm really curious where he got these statistics:

And it was all based on this one thing: a sale is a sale, and that’s it. But that’s no longer the case. A sale is only a guaranteed sale after it’s been played for 2 hours. That’s a bit awkward because the median time game play for most titles on Steam is only about an hour, which does rather beg the question why they chose a 2 hour window, but that’s part of the meta-problem Valve has, which I’ll get to.

[Kruniac]

Who are you to judge?

A 31 year old gamer who has been around since beating Dragon Warrior II was considered a cool thing to do. I am the industry. Every game evolving over time into the (some good, some) shit that it is. The countless "reboots", the fucking tragedy of "spiritual successors". I have watched things go from bad to worse. I've seen new ideas come and go, some of them worked, others didn't. I've watched AAA and indie alike fuck up time after time. I've heard promises turned into outright lies, watched hype which was nothing more than propaganda for a shit release, and gradually observed the industry practice "Dump>Patch>DLC" instead of releasing quality from the jump.

Yeah. I'm qualified to judge. I'm the guy with a stack of CDs about two feet high. Magic Carpet to Gothic. I was playing Ultima Online before stat loss. I was in the delivery room when Steam was born. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'm qualified to judge games, period.

People like different games.

I agree 100%. That's why there are different genres.

Just because you don't like the same games doesn't mean they're automatically horrible and disgusting for not agreeing with you.

I agree once again. In fact, you'll notice that I never said anything about agreeing with me or enjoying the same games I enjoy. Where you got that from I don't really know.

Let people enjoy their games while you enjoy yours. Why do you care what they like to play?

I don't care what anyone likes to play. It's when shit gamers inspire development studios to make shit games and fill the industry with more shit that I have a problem. See, I have to live here too.

Seriously. Why so negative?

You call it negative. I call it fact. Difference of opinion, friend.

My thing is this: Shit gamers will refund otherwise quality games because it didn't have their shiny/achievements/customizablepenises. They should be stood against a wall and shot. Shit devs will release broken ass games and you might not discover how broken it is until a week later. They deserve the same fate.

Unfortunately, we can't just go around shooting people. Refunds are the alternative. It's not perfect, but it'll have to do. That's what my entire point has been - it's a needed system for an otherwise unpoliced distributor.

[forsaken1111]

I'm laughing reading Kruniac's post because its pretty much verbatim what my own thoughts on the matter are, I'm just too lazy to argue with fools.

[GiglameshDespair]

I'm laughing reading Kruniac's post because its pretty much verbatim what my own thoughts on the matter are, I'm just too lazy to argue with fools.

Didn't you hear? He is the industry!

[Catastrophic lolcats]

Didn't you hear? He is the industry!

All refunds are stupid, of course. That whole thing of, "you're not really earning money or being rewarded financially, you're just receiving previous payments" is patronising and simplistic but every now and again you come across a system that has so little fiscal gain to you that you end up standing there, gazing at the mirror and saying "I'm just working retail and my life has no meaning," to a cold dead robot.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Vilanat]

Edit - Puppygames have published a blog post "addressing" the graphs and their opinion
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1708#more-1708

I'm really curious where he got these statistics:

And it was all based on this one thing: a sale is a sale, and that’s it. But that’s no longer the case. A sale is only a guaranteed sale after it’s been played for 2 hours. That’s a bit awkward because the median time game play for most titles on Steam is only about an hour, which does rather beg the question why they chose a 2 hour window, but that’s part of the meta-problem Valve has, which I’ll get to.

https://medium.com/@galyonkin/how-many-games-are-eligible-for-steam-refunds-7a4f3ea74c19

[forsaken1111]

Neat. Thank you for the source.

[Vilanat]

You welcome. i generally recommend SteamSpy as a nice source for steam data
http://steamspy.com/

[Kruniac]

I'm laughing reading Kruniac's post because its pretty much verbatim what my own thoughts on the matter are, I'm just too lazy to argue with fools.

Didn't you hear? He is the industry!

Yerp.

All refunds are stupid, of course.

Refunds are absolutely needed in an age of poor business practices. It's just a shame that legitimate devs will have to suffer because of the portion of players who game the system. There's no perfect answer at the end of the day.

[Sensei]

My thing is this: Shit gamers will refund otherwise quality games because it didn't have their shiny/achievements/customizablepenises. They should be stood against a wall and shot.

I don't think your business model should rely on taking money from people who aren't satisfied with your product. That's just shitty business. I think people who have "poor taste" should be just as allowed to return a game because they don't like it as anyone who bought a game they don't like, including people who bought all-around shitty games, or who bought Arma and were put off by how hardcore it actually was. Even people who didn't get out of the tutorial in Dark Souls. One of the motives of the refund is people who weren't sure about a game will try it- if 200 people who would never have touched Euro Truck Simulator buy it knowing that can get a refund, and 199 of those people return it, hey! You've made more money!

Besides, who are you to say that some game is totally good and people who didn't find it shiny enough have poor taste? That's exactly what the Puppygames guy thinks, most likely. Don't be that guy.

[nenjin]

People need to enhance their calm.

[miauw62]

So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?

[GiglameshDespair]

So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?

Only if Kruniac agrees with them.

---

See, for all thsi "games are shit now", I wonder what they'd think if you applied it to other media.

All books before 1889 are shit now! Modern readers are idiots who deserve to be shot, and new books are soulless cash grabs with no quality.

You'd shake your head at them.

[Kruniac]

So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?

Only if Kruniac agrees with them.

---

See, for all thsi "games are shit now", I wonder what they'd think if you applied it to other media.

All books before 1889 are shit now! Modern readers are idiots who deserve to be shot, and new books are soulless cash grabs with no quality.

You'd shake your head at them.

That's not really accurate. All games are not shit. The modern gaming industry is shit. The business practices of many (Read: Not all, and stop trying to stitch up everything I'm saying into a generalization) companies are shit.

There are PLENTY of amazing games out there by companies large and small. All "modern" gamers are not wrong - just a chunk of them. Mostly the casual douchebags who demand their own brand of shitty game.

"But why do you care what they want to play!?" - Because it fucks with my selection of games. Because of that crowd, X-Com is shit. Because of that crowd, Spore wasn't good. Because of that crowd, we've gradually moved from the likes of Daggerfall and onto Shinyrim. The "Ooooo pretty" crowd has overtaken the gaming industry, gradually replacing functionality, features, and that "X-factor" that older games have.

You can shit on my view because it's "elitist", but that doesn't change the facts. It's why a lot of modern MMOs are simply shit - over saturation of the market. It's exactly why a good chunk of modern action games (Not FPS games per se) are recycled eye candy. It's just a change in the gaming industry caused by autist gamers clamoring for more shiny and industry giants eradicating minor companies.

Anyway. The thread was about the Steam refund program. My point was that while it isn't a pretty system due to being exploited by the previously mentioned autists, it also protects the public from shady indies/companies.

In short: There is nothing wrong with getting a refund because a game is shit. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have to pay for it. It's not a flawless system, but it's what we have right now. Keep in mind that previously you were simply screwed if a game wasn't your thing and you forked over cash for it. This is a HUGE step forward for Valve.

So, old people are right in an objective way if they claim that all modern music is garbage?

Again, that's not the same thing at all. All modern games are not shit. Some are, some aren't. No one is saying ALL games are shit, and I'm not entirely sure why that's even coming up.