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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 830942 times)

Yolan

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5895 on: April 19, 2016, 04:34:09 am »

Wondering when this is likely to come on sale. Maybe I have quite a bit longer to wait?? Gah.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5896 on: April 19, 2016, 06:38:17 am »

And well, what happened to taking damage some time after taking stimpacks? They weren't health potions before. Why did radiation become something that kills you after at most 1000 seconds rather than something that does it slowly over a longer period? What happened to HPs? They were in double digits throughout most of the game in 1 and 2, and now you start off with over a hundred. Why is every late game enemy a Frank Horrigan level bullet sponge? What happened to injecting enemies with meds? What happened to wrecking doors? What happened to electronic lockpicks? What happened to power armour? It could shrug off small arms fire in previous games, so why is it storm trooper armour in 3 (and thankfully restored to the walking tank it was supposed to be, in 4)? What happened to miniguns? They've been garbage since FO3. In fact, all weapon types have had this bland DPS balance applied to them.
It just goes on and on, and some of it FO4 actually undid, such as the power armour being crap, but all the worst balance changes that made everything in the game world so bland were in 3, as far as I'm concerned. And you could argue these changes didn't make it less of an RPG, but to me they made it an RPG so bland it could be an MMO.
Stimpacks have always been just health restoration.
Every single fallout game.

What you might be thinking of is super stimpacks, which healed 75 hp and did 3 then 6 damage at the 1 then 2 minute mark, at least in FO1 and 2.

HP had inflated, but so has damage.
Ignoring poison...
Radscorpion in FO1 does 1-8 damage per melee attack.
Radscorpion in FO3 does 22 damage per melee attack.

Radiation was an issue in what, one place in FO1 and FO2? The Glow in FO and... maybe the Toxic caves in FO2?
It works pretty much the same way, as well; while FO2 did a little bit of HP damage as well, what it did was reduce your special stats by successive amounts as rad count increased. Though, if one of them reached zero, you died. Or you got over 1000 rads, when you died after 24 hours.
But it pretty much wasn't ever a concern.

The minigun does still have a higher DPS than any of the conventional small guns or energy weapons in FO3, and has one of the highest DPSs of all in NV.


Oh yeah, CHA was a dump stat through and through. END as well, since gameplay tended to favor the same old super-high-damage stealth alpha strikes where you instagib most of the enemies and clean up with VATS. LUK was a dump stat (especially after the level cap was raised by DLC and mods) since you'd max your skills pretty quickly anyways and it only affect regular crits, while sneak attack crits were guaranteed. STR wasn't quite a dump stat in 3, but you could safely leave it at 4-6 points, wherever you felt most comfortable having your carry weight at. It became a core stat for most characters in NV to some extent because of the return of weapon STR requirements. PER could safely be dumped unless you were doing an energy weapons build from the start or needed the crutch of the psychic compass markers.

AGI was core in 3 because it gave you your AP for VATS and applied to two of the most important skills in the game. It only became more core in NV because they added extra utility to it. INT was likewise core because it directly increased your rate of advancement, affected three key general skills, and was used in (what felt like to me) much more than 1/7th of the attribute dialogue options.

So yeah. Pretty much every character in 3 and NV would pump AGI and INT plus one or two other stats, leave STR at average (unless they pumped it), and dump the rest into the gutter. Unless you were doing a deliberately suboptimal build, that is.
Really? I always considered AGI a dump stat in NV, since they nerfed VATS. STR was useful, I liked having decent END for the implants, and high luck let you get dat money early on in gambling quickly.
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BFEL

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5897 on: April 19, 2016, 07:08:11 am »

Yeah, I'm in the "New Perk System is Absolutely Beautiful" camp. Both because of what Flying Dice already noted, and also because you can dump points into SPECIAL all you want and not feel like you've irreversibly lost some advantage. In fact in the new system its difficult NOT to pump into stat boosts at SOME point.

The biggest complaint I have with the new tree thing is the level reqs, and there's a mod for that so...

While it DOES lend itself to simplifying things that for example NV handled with skill checks that could EASILY be ported to the new system without a huge amount of pain. Y'know, if Bethesda actually cared about player agency or something :P
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Sirbug

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5898 on: April 19, 2016, 09:29:59 am »

I would love perk system if it wasn't so damn long and I think they should've used a tree branching different subskills from generic skills.
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Sergius

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5899 on: April 19, 2016, 09:50:12 am »

The perk screen itself I consider a bit of a mess, I always have to check every single cell to find the perk I was looking for. But the perk system, I just love what they did. I've always been a fan of RPGs (not computer ones necessarily) where player stats or skills have a smaller range rather than tens or hundreds of points.

I would fix the interface to make it searchable, or of you could select to sort them by SPECIAL, or level or some sort of category (ranged, melee, crafting, etc).

That doesn't mean I love the game world or story or quests or whatever. Just the perk system (other stuff are a bit hit and miss IMO).
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Virtz

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5900 on: April 19, 2016, 11:57:48 am »

And well, what happened to taking damage some time after taking stimpacks? They weren't health potions before. Why did radiation become something that kills you after at most 1000 seconds rather than something that does it slowly over a longer period? What happened to HPs? They were in double digits throughout most of the game in 1 and 2, and now you start off with over a hundred. Why is every late game enemy a Frank Horrigan level bullet sponge? What happened to injecting enemies with meds? What happened to wrecking doors? What happened to electronic lockpicks? What happened to power armour? It could shrug off small arms fire in previous games, so why is it storm trooper armour in 3 (and thankfully restored to the walking tank it was supposed to be, in 4)? What happened to miniguns? They've been garbage since FO3. In fact, all weapon types have had this bland DPS balance applied to them.
It just goes on and on, and some of it FO4 actually undid, such as the power armour being crap, but all the worst balance changes that made everything in the game world so bland were in 3, as far as I'm concerned. And you could argue these changes didn't make it less of an RPG, but to me they made it an RPG so bland it could be an MMO.
Stimpacks have always been just health restoration.
Every single fallout game.

What you might be thinking of is super stimpacks, which healed 75 hp and did 3 then 6 damage at the 1 then 2 minute mark, at least in FO1 and 2.

HP had inflated, but so has damage.
Ignoring poison...
Radscorpion in FO1 does 1-8 damage per melee attack.
Radscorpion in FO3 does 22 damage per melee attack.

Radiation was an issue in what, one place in FO1 and FO2? The Glow in FO and... maybe the Toxic caves in FO2?
It works pretty much the same way, as well; while FO2 did a little bit of HP damage as well, what it did was reduce your special stats by successive amounts as rad count increased. Though, if one of them reached zero, you died. Or you got over 1000 rads, when you died after 24 hours.
But it pretty much wasn't ever a concern.

The minigun does still have a higher DPS than any of the conventional small guns or energy weapons in FO3, and has one of the highest DPSs of all in NV.
Indeed I was thinking super stimpaks after all. Maybe the health loss for regular stimpaks was a thing in the demo? Prolly not and I'm just misremembering, tho. My bad.

The damage amounts haven't exactly scaled proportionately with the health amount, though. That 8 is 26.66% of the average starting player's health. That 22 damage is 11%. You're also discounting criticals, which happened like crazy in FO1 and 2, especially in the late game where you shot everyone in the eyes, usually one-shotting them. It was basically the opposite of FO3 where everything becomes a massive bullet sponge regardless of where you shoot it at later levels.

Fair enough with the radiation, but I still say it was handled better. In most cases it didn't insta-kill you once some clearly visible meter filled up. Also, having a built-in geiger counter, including being able to know what radiation level something you're considering eating is gonna give, kind of ruins the whole "phantom death" aspect. Lore-wise it didn't even make sense for every vaultboy to be equipped with one considering your vault was meant to stay, and I'm pretty sure there were vaults where the denizens weren't even supposed to know they're getting radiated. Kind of hard not to notice with that ticking radiation gauge.

The minigun can't hit anything and doesn't hit that hard when it does. It was costly but deadly in FO 1 and 2. It could murder a group of people in one burst at low to mid range. Like don't get me wrong, it wasn't the best (mostly due to friendly fire and costliness), but it had a use, and it was effective. A minigun in 3 or 4 I could never find a use for. It's just heavy, doesn't hit a whole lot and uses up ammo quickly.
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umiman

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5901 on: April 19, 2016, 12:03:59 pm »

Wondering when this is likely to come on sale. Maybe I have quite a bit longer to wait?? Gah.
Been on sale a few times now.

Pretty sure it was 40% off a few weeks ago.

Damiac

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5902 on: April 19, 2016, 12:04:15 pm »

The way armor works seems to prevent the minigun, or really any automatic weapon, from being any good. 

In fallout 2 at least, crits bypassed armor, so a crit with a minigun was instant death for pretty much anything.  In 3, NV, and 4, crits work differently (how did crits actually work in 3 anyway?)
I did like that in fallout 2, gun damage was dictated by THE GUN AND THE BULLETS! All skill did was make you more accurate, which in turn let you get more and better crits.  Which is exactly how it should work!  I really hate how 3, NV, and 4 have guns doing different amounts of damage based on the skill of the user.  What, do you pull the trigger extra hard when you're good at it?

I like the perk system in 4.  In 3, getting a new perk was always more exciting than making some numbers a little bigger. Granularity is fine if you're actually using it, but having a 0-100 system where only the breakpoints at 25, 50, 75, and 100 matter is the same as a 0-4 system.
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Sergius

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5903 on: April 19, 2016, 12:11:31 pm »

I think this DPS "balancing" is especially obvious (and annoying) in Fallout 4 where changing the receiver of something from single shot to automatic immediately cuts down the damage per bullet to half or less. Or anything that makes a minigun shoot faster, does the same.

I made a sentry robot with a minigun hand, it's pathetic against regular raiders (the ones I one-shot with my combat rifle), I'm going to have to change it to something that does single shots.
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Damiac

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5904 on: April 19, 2016, 12:18:44 pm »

I know, it's infuriatingly stupid!

An automatic weapon does fire with slightly less power, because some of the force normally used to propel the bullet is used to cycle the action, get the next bullet ready to fire, and fire it.  But still, it's a goddamn bullet going at supersonic speed! 

They should have had automatics do 5% less damage or so, lose 10% armor penetration, and require a higher level of gun nut than the single shot variety.  So at gun nut 3, you can have the most powerful single shot receiver, and at 4, you can get the same receiver in automatic. 

Still, automatics in this are better than they were in fallout 3. So... maybe by fallout 7 or so they'll be a decent weapon again.

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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5905 on: April 19, 2016, 12:58:45 pm »

Maybe by that time they'll realize that you can switch assault rifles from automatic to semiautomatic fire  :P
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Damiac

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5906 on: April 19, 2016, 03:31:10 pm »

You should be able to build a fully automatic, full damage pipe gun with no loss in damage, only it's truly automatic, meaning, once you start firing you're gonna use the whole clip.  That would be pretty funny, and cool.  But especially funny.
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Neonivek

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5907 on: April 19, 2016, 03:44:01 pm »

Well intelligence's big issue is more that it has a lot of dump skills cooked into it. It has the only 10 that can be superfluous.

Where as the other 10 skills are pretty powerful in it of itself.
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symonthewise

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5908 on: April 19, 2016, 04:03:50 pm »

Dark Souls?

I agree non of their games have ever been stellar. But Morrowind was fun. You could own that experience via enchanting.

Since then you're just plodding down the pre-decided gameplay path Bethesda has mapped out.

Because its challenging? What do you like about it?

nenjin

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #5909 on: April 19, 2016, 05:02:54 pm »

It's a lot of things.

What you collect isn't just a set of static numbers that lack any and all surprise.

What is out there constantly breaks form.

Your adventuring is mostly self-guided instead of waypoints, quests in your quest log and so forth.

And yes, the challenge. Stuff is intimidating and difficult but it's beatable if you pay attention.
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