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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 840381 times)

Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5025 on: December 23, 2015, 11:23:59 am »

I dunno, Fallout 4 never really felt boring to me.

The radiant quests are annoying and tedious, but I get a lot of fun out of just wandering around, finding nifty locations and neat extras and easter eggs of which there are many, joining NPC battles between groups raiders/gunners/super mutants/ghouls/synths/wildilfe and BoS/Minutemen/Caravans/Provisioners for my settlements. Plus, the settlement building stuff is like heroin to me, just like it was in mods for NV and FO3. There's plenty of interesting locations, sidestories, encounters and sidequests to discover in the commonwealth. Plus the settlement building and upgrades means there's a reason to wandering around apart from the plain old "Wanna see more stuff".

So, I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call Fallout 4 boring. But it does feel empty in the sidequest variety department compared to NV and FO3, and I have more than a sneaking suspicion it's because of the sodding radiant quests which are boring, repetitive and don't feel like they achieve anything really.

Especially baffling and stupid are the Minutemen radiant quests. I am the goddamn general of the sodding Minutemen, I should be able to delegate them to my underlings. Does a settlement under my protection need assistance? Dispatch a squad of minutemen to it. Do I need to recapture a location? Dispatch a squad of minutemen. Settlement under attack? Squad of minutemen. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to go and do all those things yourself if you want to (you boring person you), it'd just make more sense if you had the ability to send out a team to do them for you (and the ability to join them).

It'd be a much more interesting system IMO and it'd feel more like you're the actual commander of the Minutemen instead of just some errand boy with a fancy costume.

Similar thoughts on the Brotherhood and Railway radiant quests, although I kinda get the reason behind you being sent alone in the latter (since the Railway is understaffed because a Bad Thing happened recently and also they are really really incompetent).



In general, my thoughts on Fallout 4 are really divided. On the one hand, the game looks pretty, has a memorable visual design, the combat feels good, the settlement building and management is crack, weapon customization is fun, the world is vast and littered with neat locations and Easter eggs, the companions are so far all memorable and fun, there are interesting side quests to be had and the plot has some real peaks and is overall better than FO3 IMO.

On the other hand, Gunners still make no sense, radiant quests are annoying, repetitive and don't feel like they contribute anything besides being grind for the grind god, an annoyingly large percentage of quests is from the "go there, kill everything" school of quest design, the dialogue system is stupidly limited and vague for no goddamn reason whatsoever (even on consoles it'd work perfectly well to just have a dropdown menu of all responses), the perk system feels underutilized in dialogue and blank slate characters don't mix well with voiced protagonists.

Basically, it's a Bethesda game. Infinitely vexing in how it manages to both consume me utterly and piss me off to no end.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 11:25:41 am by Krevsin »
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5026 on: December 23, 2015, 01:03:24 pm »

I wish it had a full-fledged faction war system. Bailing out all those settlements should let you draft them into your Minutemen Army and struggle for control against the raiders, Gunners, Brotherhood, etc.

My preferred ending is the one where the Minutemen purge the land of all the other factions and consolidate power under one Commonwealth. :P

Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5027 on: December 23, 2015, 01:17:57 pm »

That'd be a neat thing, having an actual yaknow country form on the east coast as well.

I wonder if a mod could be made that made raiders and gunners stop spawning after you've cleared them out a couple times.
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BFEL

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5028 on: December 23, 2015, 01:32:10 pm »

So any good mods out yet?
Someone mentioned one that let you mod legendary effects like other components, which sounds pretty awesome. A link would be appreciated if anyone knows it.

Anything else good?
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5029 on: December 23, 2015, 01:38:09 pm »

There's something weird going on with my FO4 whereby some mods work and some don't.

The only one I'm really using is craftable armor size and craftable ammunition (both of which should by all rights be part of the vanilla game IMO) along with the lite version of Full Dialogue Interface (because the proper version doesn't work properly).

I think I'm going to do a clean install once I'm done with this character.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 01:39:59 pm by Krevsin »
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Telgin

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5030 on: December 23, 2015, 02:26:18 pm »

The crafting system feels just a little too shallow to me, like the settlement building.  It's almost there, but it feels like Bethesda expected modders to finish it for them.

In particular... pretty much everything in the craftable armor size mod is spot on.  Why can't you improve light armor to heavier armor if you can build turrets out of tin cans?

The thing that really kind of confuses me though, is how you can't craft weapons and armor from nothing.  Shouldn't you be able to at least make pipe rifles?  You can even craft each piece individually, including making entirely new receivers, but you just can't do it without having a gun already.
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Greenbane

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5031 on: December 23, 2015, 02:58:08 pm »

As it is, the versatility of crafting has already trivialized loot gathering. Over 90% of what you find is scrap fodder, before long.

Official craftable ammo would trivialize ammo scrounging as well. It's already wholly unnecessary, as it's easy to procure thousands of bullets of most every calibre.

Crafting should really focus on improving gear, and it has already overflown into "morphing" weapons (i.e. pistols to rifles), which isn't a good move from a design standpoint.

And if you can build turrets out of tin cans, the solution isn't to make everything else buildable from tin cans, but rather to up the complexity of suitably complex construction to begin with (i.e. require a missile launcher for a goddamn missile turret).
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Telgin

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5032 on: December 23, 2015, 03:05:07 pm »

That puzzled me as well, and I'd be happy for the system to work that way.  It would give me something to do with them other than have 5 missile launchers sitting in storage and Codsworth's inventory.  In fact, it would be nice if you could build generic turrets and slap any weapon in them.

Being able to craft ammo does trivialize it, and I'm not so sure about it anyway.  How realistic is it to make usable bullets for a modern weapon from junk?  I'd guess nearly impossible without very specific tools.  Having said that, I never did use the reloading benches in New Vegas because there was almost no point.

Of course, this all goes back to being able to make turrets out of tin cans.  Or a section of wall out of half of a dozen pencils.  The whole system is kind of... iffy.  For usability's sake I guess.
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Jiokuy

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5033 on: December 23, 2015, 03:32:26 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well that got super long.


Radiant quests are not examples of satisfying practice based gameplay primarily because they are not hard. You do not fail radiant quests regularly. You're not practicing to get better, you're just taking out the laundry, they feel like chore, because they are functionally chores the game is asking you to complete. They are not an example of satisfying Improv based gameplay because they feel routine, Improve gameplay relies on the feeling of accomplishment from solving a novel challenge in the moment. And quite frankly even when radiant quests are reasonably challenging, they still don't feel novel. They are not examples of satisfying plan based gameplay, because in all honesty you just can't plan around them. FO4 barely rewards good planning in the first place, and there is nothing unique about radiant quests that requires you to think through your loadout before embarking on them.

Basically FO4 in an attempt to appeal to many different audiences, instead watered down all aspects of it's gameplay. In trying to appeal to everyone it is a significantly worse game.

It can be fun, but it is fun by accident more than by design.
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scriver

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5034 on: December 23, 2015, 03:49:13 pm »

Yeah. Sometimes I wish they were still using whole items for ingredients for certain item mods/buildings/whatever instead of always using the "atoms".
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TheBronzePickle

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5035 on: December 23, 2015, 05:49:21 pm »

Being able to craft ammo does trivialize it, and I'm not so sure about it anyway.  How realistic is it to make usable bullets for a modern weapon from junk?  I'd guess nearly impossible without very specific tools.  Having said that, I never did use the reloading benches in New Vegas because there was almost no point.

Casings would be the only really hard part to make, and even those are just cast bronze. As long as you have the bullet dimensions, you could probably use clay dies for that since bronze doesn't require a particularly high melting point.

The bullets themselves would be extremely simple. The die could be made out of clay, steel, probably even wood. In order to put on a jacket, you can use electroplating. You could make a battery out of sulfuric acid and lead in a clay pot for that.

The powder and primer would require a bit of chemistry, but nothing beyond a high school level.
For the powder, nitric acid's the most difficult reagent to get, but once you have it, it can be used in other chemical reactions to make more nitric acid. From there, soaking plant fiber like cotton or paper produces nitrocellulose, and mixing it with corn-based glycerin and some sulfuric acid as a catalyst makes nitroglycerin. Mix the two together for a good, if simple, double-base smokeless powder and then weigh it out and fill the bullet.

The primer would probably be the hardest thing to deal with, if not necessarily the hardest to make. You need a fairly sensitive explosive, and some of them can be extremely unsafe. Silver fulminate and nitrogen triiodide, for example, have trouble even being handled. Mercury fulminate is reasonably safe, but getting the required resources might not be easy and mercury is poisonous.

Overall, though, anyone who does know what they're doing could probably put together an effective ammunition building station out of literal scrap.
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Greenbane

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5036 on: December 23, 2015, 06:12:15 pm »

Belatedly, I just noticed this earlier post, and while I'm not about to jump at anyone's throat...

Due to over-reliance on the Radiant Quest system Bethesda is so proud of, F4 is boring.

(...)

I've put in 200 hours on my main save, and while I have yet to even bother completing many sidequests, the Radiant system has utterly burnt me out when it comes to basic gameplay.

Does not compute.

You don't play a boring game for 200 hours. Fallout 4 may be dumb and shallow to some extent, but boring, it is not. At least not until you've put several dozen hours into it.

And what's the Radiant system, by the way? From what I could gather skimming the comments, is it the procedural quest generator?
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Execute/Dumbo.exe

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5037 on: December 23, 2015, 06:15:35 pm »

I dunno, I've clocked a sizeable amount of time into Diablo 3, and I wouldn't call it exciting, exactly.
There could be plenty of other reasons someone would play a game for such a long time, peer pressure*, addictiveness, perhaps it was fun before? I've got 128 hours into New Vegas, and I can't really say that there were many times I was really excited.
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Neonivek

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5038 on: December 23, 2015, 06:16:53 pm »

The thing is... Fallout 4 has finally entered the period of time after the war that the wasteland SHOULD be recovering. We already see factories, small scale water purification, Large scale water purification, like 4 canonical GECKs going off. We hear of places creating their own cash money, bottlecaps, and even metallic coins...

So yeah... creation of bullets isn't too far fetched.

If anything Fallout 4 has kind of hit the point where it hit its own version of medieval stasis.

I mean... Yes it still being highly radioactive is ok, since it isn't based on real science but the broken sci-fi and broken science of the time "The heart is one cell".
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Fniff

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #5039 on: December 23, 2015, 06:35:11 pm »

If anything Fallout 4 has kind of hit the point where it hit its own version of medieval stasis.
This hits the nail right on the head.

Except, apocalypse stasis is somehow more ridiculous then medieval stasis. Because while medieval life is, well, medieval, it is still a working society. Apocalypse stasis just has all these weird gaps that no-one has filled.

Mr. House: "Hey, welcome to my amazing utopia, where society has reestablished itself in a anarcho-capitalist playground!"
Wastelanders: "Wow! That sounds amazing! The streets must be paved with gold, it's so great!"
Mr. House: "Haha, no, they're paved with rubble. Despite the fact I've got an army of robots, I can't be arsed hiring someone to get debris off the thoroughfare. In fact, when you get right down to it, the only difference between New Vegas and other settlements is the lack of murderous psychopaths."
Wastelander: "Oh. Well, that still sounds okay."
Mr. House: "The murderous psychopaths are outside the city. Except ours are more murderous and more psychopathic then regular ol' raiders. Good luck getting inside!"

The issue with taking into account the sheer amount of years that have passed, is that you end up with something so distant from human society that it's completely unrecognizable, at which point you might as well make a fantasy game.

The alternative to that would be to create a game set right after a nuclear war, which on the plus side would have a reasonable excuse for all the rubble and bodies, but would be incredibly depressing.

... On a similar topic, I wonder how you'd go about making a game based off Threads.
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