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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 842534 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1725 on: September 12, 2015, 01:29:03 pm »

I've just replayed fallout 1 & 2 very recently. In those, (just like in Morrowind) you have a very low (often impossible) chance to hit anything if you don't have a high enough score in the relevant combat skill. A few percentage points more in a skill translats directly into a higher hit ratio.

In this new era of fps-style 3D gaming, not being able to hit something right in front of you isn't accepted (partly because they never add dodging animation).

Skill numbers are fine for a party-based tactical roleplaying game, but for an immersive action rpg, perks make more sense.

Well it is more because they "assume" that in the tactical game that you aren't just running to a set spot but actively dodging and moving around.

If you had a lousy score it typically means you flat out don't know how to use your weapon. Something that REALLY isn't reflected in the Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Oddly enough I only seen one game where they actually DID have skill eventually have the character outright use a weapon properly but wouldn't until then (not just a flat out accuracy or damage penalty)

In Fallout 3 and NV your character is pretty much a master of all weapons at skill 1.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 01:30:58 pm by Neonivek »
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1726 on: September 12, 2015, 01:42:19 pm »

how do swing hammer not high enough skill
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scriver

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1727 on: September 12, 2015, 01:49:31 pm »

Yes Giglamesh please go up to a kendo fighter and say "how do swing stick not high enough skill"

edit: this was not meant to come off as srs bznzzz as it might have done.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 01:52:26 pm by scriver »
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Rolan7

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1728 on: September 12, 2015, 01:51:20 pm »

Neonivek that's not true for New Vegas.  Pretty much every weapon has a strength and skill requirement.  If you don't meet the requirements, the weapon will be extremely inaccurate, or very slow in the case of melee weapons.
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Neonivek

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1729 on: September 12, 2015, 01:52:43 pm »

Neonivek that's not true for New Vegas.  Pretty much every weapon has a strength and skill requirement.  If you don't meet the requirements, the weapon will be extremely inaccurate, or very slow in the case of melee weapons.

Yes but that is due to magic accuracy and speed penalties.

You need to have the skill to know you need to rub chicken grease on your shotgun to make it shoot properly.

Your character doesn't hold the gun wrong, jam it, or miss load it. His bullets just chose to go somewhere other than where you aim.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 02:14:42 pm by Neonivek »
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1730 on: September 12, 2015, 02:43:47 pm »

Neonivek that's not true for New Vegas.  Pretty much every weapon has a strength and skill requirement.  If you don't meet the requirements, the weapon will be extremely inaccurate, or very slow in the case of melee weapons.

Yes but that is due to magic accuracy and speed penalties.

You need to have the skill to know you need to rub chicken grease on your shotgun to make it shoot properly.

Your character doesn't hold the gun wrong, jam it, or miss load it. His bullets just chose to go somewhere other than where you aim.
Magic accuracy and speed penalties were how FO1 and FO2 handled it on a purely mechanical basis as well. Neither of them simulated holding the gun wrong or improper gun lubrication.

Well remember this is a Triple-A title now. That means that it needs to pander to people who maybe play a videogame once every month or so. The Casual market

That means in order to make the game fun for people who only play videogames casually... Casual players we will say. They need to add a few more simplifications.

By limiting your choices to a predefined path that can be easily observed it means that as a player you no longer need to think... and if you don't need to think, that means you can spend more time playing the game.
This is entirely and completely bollocks.

Neither FO3 nor Skyrim were aimed at a casual audience and neither completely removed player agency and replaced it with predetermined paths. And they were both, as you say, "triple A titles".

Quote
The only problem with Skyrim's perk system is that Bethesda did a poor job of balancing it.

It... had a lot of other problems... or at least by "Poor job balancing it" you put it mildly because everything you could POSSIBLY say about balance was off.

---

But basically I see this perk system to basically be kind of dealing the final nails in the coffin of the Fallout feel on the series.

"Hey, remember when we could play the game our way?"
"Nope! Now quick! Get +50% energy weapon damage trait! and lets shoot at the boss!"
"But I have stealth"
"Just take the perk... you have to shoot the boss"

The game will be alright in the end. Still a fun game and it isn't like the game departing from the RPG feel wasn't in the game previously.

Heck people mostly complain about the RPG elements.

The days where having high science means you get more of the story is over.
You obviously never played FO3 or New Vegas where many tidbits of fluff were hidden behind locked terminals and locked doors.

As far as the perks go, wait for the game to actually come out before commenting on what the perks are and will be. Looking at Skyrim for what it'll be like is like playing Oblivion and then talking about Fallout 3's levelling mechanics.

You don't know any details about it and stop pretending like you do. Wait for either the game to come out or something more substantial to be revealed concerning the how's and why's of the game's perk system.
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ShoesandHats

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1731 on: September 12, 2015, 03:07:17 pm »

Is anyone here going to be getting the season pass? Normally I'd completely write off something like that, but Bethesda usually releases around 3 or 4 pieces of good DLC, so I'm definitely considering it. I will, however, wait to see if the game is actually good first.

That said, I'm honestly not sure how this game could turn out bad. Mediocre I could maybe see, but honestly I'm not sure how they could fuck it up enough for it to be considered bad. It looks like it's turned out well from what we've seen however, so I'm expecting it to be good.
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Neonivek

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1732 on: September 12, 2015, 03:13:17 pm »

Quote
Magic accuracy and speed penalties were how FO1 and FO2 handled it on a purely mechanical basis as well. Neither of them simulated holding the gun wrong or improper gun lubrication

As I said it extrapolated. There is more going on in a battle then what is shown.

Unlike Fallout 3 where what you see is 100% what is going on.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 03:17:33 pm by Neonivek »
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BigD145

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1733 on: September 12, 2015, 03:15:51 pm »

Is anyone here going to be getting the season pass? Normally I'd completely write off something like that, but Bethesda usually releases around 3 or 4 pieces of good DLC, so I'm definitely considering it. I will, however, wait to see if the game is actually good first.

That said, I'm honestly not sure how this game could turn out bad. Mediocre I could maybe see, but honestly I'm not sure how they could fuck it up enough for it to be considered bad. It looks like it's turned out well from what we've seen however, so I'm expecting it to be good.

By the time the last DLC comes out the first couple will be seriously discounted. If the base game doesn't hold out long enough for DLC to be discounted then it's probably not going to be a good game.
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Neonivek

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1734 on: September 12, 2015, 03:18:42 pm »

I've learned my lesson NEVER to get a seasons pass... Especially since most games never revoke their seasons pass.

Too many games have burned me on this... Looking at you Shadow of Mordor! With your Season pass that I barely feel was worth 5 bucks.

I'll just wait until they produce One piece of DLC that justifies the season pass first.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 03:22:27 pm by Neonivek »
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miauw62

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1735 on: September 12, 2015, 03:47:43 pm »

Neonivek that's not true for New Vegas.  Pretty much every weapon has a strength and skill requirement.  If you don't meet the requirements, the weapon will be extremely inaccurate, or very slow in the case of melee weapons.

Yes but that is due to magic accuracy and speed penalties.

You need to have the skill to know you need to rub chicken grease on your shotgun to make it shoot properly.

Your character doesn't hold the gun wrong, jam it, or miss load it. His bullets just chose to go somewhere other than where you aim.
And how is this different from the first games?????
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1736 on: September 12, 2015, 04:34:32 pm »

Neonivek that's not true for New Vegas.  Pretty much every weapon has a strength and skill requirement.  If you don't meet the requirements, the weapon will be extremely inaccurate, or very slow in the case of melee weapons.

Yes but that is due to magic accuracy and speed penalties.

You need to have the skill to know you need to rub chicken grease on your shotgun to make it shoot properly.

Your character doesn't hold the gun wrong, jam it, or miss load it. His bullets just chose to go somewhere other than where you aim.

...but maintaining stuff comes under repair, anyway, guns included.

And I'll be really honest, here. Aside from maybe a few particularly arcane firearms, you can really just pick them up and use them. They are not overly complicated to operate, normally by design. If I picked up a gun, I'd be quite capable of using it. The ones I wouldn't, I could fiddle around with for a minute and then know how.

Did you need training to swap the batteries in your Gameboy as a kid? Well, no, and most energy weapons are even simpler to operate than Guns. Swap the battery, pull the trigger.

So the relevant skill - i.e. how well you use them - only affecting accuracy is pretty reasonable. It's not like these has been different in any of the fallout games.

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ZebioLizard2

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1737 on: September 12, 2015, 05:21:00 pm »

Quote
Magic accuracy and speed penalties were how FO1 and FO2 handled it on a purely mechanical basis as well. Neither of them simulated holding the gun wrong or improper gun lubrication

As I said it extrapolated. There is more going on in a battle then what is shown.

Unlike Fallout 3 where what you see is 100% what is going on.

Having just played both and tactics.. Yeah there is nothing more going on in a battle then what is shown to you, and even then if it was it's due to an older system, an isometric view and otherwise.

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ShoesandHats

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1738 on: September 13, 2015, 12:11:00 am »

Did Bethesda give out pre-release review copies for Skyrim and Fallout 3? I know (well, I'm pretty sure, anyway) that they haven't said anything about that for 4, but knowing that there's precedent would help.
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: The Seven Defining Attributes that Make YOU S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
« Reply #1739 on: September 13, 2015, 12:34:11 am »

Quote
Magic accuracy and speed penalties were how FO1 and FO2 handled it on a purely mechanical basis as well. Neither of them simulated holding the gun wrong or improper gun lubrication

As I said it extrapolated. There is more going on in a battle then what is shown.

Unlike Fallout 3 where what you see is 100% what is going on.
Fallout 3 did not have the skill penalties outside VATS IIRC. That was a thing added in by mods and NV.

And in NV you also do not see everything. Perhaps your character flinches, pulls the trigger instead of squeezing it or adjusts too little or too much for the recoil or any of those minor things that the devs did not have the time, money or desire to animate. adding flavour to a misfire in olden RPGs was as simple as adding some flavour text to a failed roll. Nowadays, it takes a lot more work to do the same.

You can extrapolate anything from a game if you accept that WYSIWYG does not apply and older RPGs very heavily relied on that, with their isometric perspective and lack of animations (FO1 and FO2 did not have a different character sprite for each weapon. Does that mean that your character magically transformed your G11 into what looks like some sort of a hunting rifle?) and relying heavily on flavour text. The same applies to modern RPGs, even with their abundance of animations and details, some things aren't going to be animated. Though they could have bothered to add in jamming of worn-down weapons.



Anyway, I see this simplified, perk-based system as a step away from pure RPGs. Now I consider this a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it would seem that combat is going to be more like an FPS, relying more on your own skill at shooting than numbers. Which I consider a good thing because the combat in FO3 and NV was this weird fusion of RPG mechanics and first person perspective shooting that didn't really work well at all. Especially in FO3 where your skill in the weapon category only influenced your VATS performance so you had these weird moments when you could shoot everything no problem in real-time but missed every shot while in VATS. So I could see the changes to combat brought about by a mostly perk-based system as a good thing.

Now the actual RPG stuff, I am more miffed about the change of. While it is true that speech, science and lockpicking had set points at which you could do things (except for speech in FO3, which had percentage-based success rates, though the set points were still there), it was a system that more easily lent itself to using drugs and skill magazines (in NV) to overcome what would otherwise be an insurmountable challenge. Now, I don't know how it'll be handled in FO4, maybe they'll roll those skills into SPECIAL characteristics, a prospect that I do not feel happy about since that'd mean you keep what you have at the beginning throughout the game, changing it only very rarely and late-game, or maybe they'll roll it into perks, emulating the "set points of advancement" mechanic of 3 and NV, which begs the question of how drugs, skill magazines and books will be handled and of course why would a player choose the other perks. Either way, I will have to play the game and see.

Also is it just me or have traits been axed? I can't remember them being in the character creation presentation at E3.
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