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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 832206 times)

NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6450 on: December 02, 2016, 09:52:24 am »

I assure you, you're thinking too much.  Fallout 4 has no depth whatsoever, not even satirical depth.  But whatever, I'm not really hating on the game, it is by far the best power armor and robot collection simulator I've ever seen.
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Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6451 on: December 02, 2016, 09:54:48 am »

I don't follow on the depth bit. How do you judge that?

Not being rude, genuinely curious.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6452 on: December 02, 2016, 10:24:55 am »

To me, at least, depth is measurable by the level of detail and inter-relation of elements of the story and environment.  As an example, Nick is a character in Fallout 4 who has some depth (not much, but some, I can't reveal most details without spoiling things, but they become apparent fairly fast), and is very representative of something Bethesda did well (not right, nothing about this game is right.)  Whereas a certain female scientist is completely without depth or meaning, and is clearly some writer lusting after his tsundere waifu.  There are numerous examples of the 'wide as the ocean deep as a puddle' problem in F4, and it would take a long time to explore all of them.

So in general it comes down to this:

1 : How does it relate to the player (Bethesda pretty much has this handled, for better or worse.)
2 : How does it relate to the story (Bethesda drops the ball on this one fairly frequently.)
3 : How does it relate to other elements of the game (and here is where they don't even try, why the hell does Captain Ironsides even exist again?)

That's is the simplest way for me to explain how I perceive the 'depth' of elements of a game.
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Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6453 on: December 02, 2016, 10:29:53 am »

I can't say much about the first and second, but I can about the third.

Why have FISTO? Why have the Bright Brotherhood? Hell, why have the entirety of OWB? Because it's a fun thing the devs put in because it's a quest idea they had and it fit in a loose way. Yeah, you could argue Ironsides is out of place because he's a sentry bot, but if there'd been a terminal saying 'he was reprogrammed' it wouldn't matter. Honestly, I found the quest pretty fun and I loved the characters it had. Yeah, it wasn't a masterpiece, but it was fun.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6454 on: December 02, 2016, 10:37:07 am »

FISTO has an interrelation to other elements of the game/story, his individual quest looks meaningless but if you are methodical and dig around there is a lot of stuff to learn, the bright brotherhood not so much, but Fallout has always had kooky cults, and I'm not even going to go into DLC here, that's an enormous mess that needs to be sorted individually.

The problem with Ironsides, and almost every other side-quest element of F4 is that it ties into nothing at all, it is completely encapsulated in itself with no outside meaning (aside from some off-hand comments from a DJ, where have we heard that before?)  I'm not knocking the quest, it was fun and had an amusing if mostly useless reward, and the robots were rather funny.  Still no depth tho'.

I'm not trying to indicate that every piece of the game has to flawlessly integrate into everything else, but most of the game should be interrelated, not stand alone nonsense.

Edit: I mean, most of my complaints about F4 are the same ones I had about F3, too much random meaningless stuff, not enough actual functioning world.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 10:41:10 am by NullForceOmega »
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Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6455 on: December 02, 2016, 10:42:21 am »

Honestly, I have a problem with the interrelation thing. It's hard to find quests in new vegas that tied into the main quest unless they were specifically tying into the main quest through getting sent to talk to a guy, help the guy or don't, and coming back for more.

While there is no overarching story to every quest, the quests you get at least feel memorable. I can't for the life of me name many of the quests I've done a bunch in NV, but every quest I've done in 4 at the moment feels pretty memorable. Yeah, it may just be because it's recent, but that's no the point. Only real quests I can point to by the name in NV are 'Bright Brotherhood' and 'Wing Dang Atomic Tango'(?). The game's great, but there's not really much to remember on my part.

Plus, how would you tie in much of the quests anyway? NV had the same thing with Mr New Vegas just making comments based on your resolution the quest and if you're lucky the quest will get a sentence of dialogue after the end so you can pat yourself on the back. i don't mind every quest not having effects on the world. I mean, is helping a group of robots who believe they're sailors on a ship really gonna impact the story in any meaningful way? Is the BoS, Railroad, Institute, or Minutemen gonna benefit from them being crashed into a tower at the end?

Teneb

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6456 on: December 02, 2016, 10:44:46 am »

Since NV was mentioned, I need to point out that nearly everything in NV, DLC or not, has the underlying theme of obsession and not letting go.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6457 on: December 02, 2016, 10:48:43 am »

Again, not about them being individually important, its about how they 'relate', FISTO himself and the whole quest chain he's part of are standalone, but Cerulean Robotics itself has information that directly pertains to the main story, if you didn't do the quest you might still gain access to that information (and the reason that House must die) but the Atomic Wrangler quest actually sends you there and puts the info at your fingertips.

That is what I mean by it being related, what do we learn about the world of the Commonwealth from Ironsides?  Nothing, at all, even the salvagers are faceless throwaways who exist only for the purpose of the quest.  I don't need Ironsides to be individually important to the story, I'd like for his quest to actually build on the world through whatever means, even if it's nothing but some intel on the Institute or anything really, and not be lolsorandom.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 10:52:29 am by NullForceOmega »
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Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6458 on: December 02, 2016, 10:55:42 am »

Alright. Lemme try this then: Robco is directly important to the story.

Not everything ties into the shadow-y cabal. The Institute don't just leave evidence behind. If an operative dies while doing stuff, then yeah it might make sense, but if the operatives were successful and perhaps using the Captain to gain information while seeming innocuous, then why would there be evidence of their tampering? They don't seem to like going guns blazing unless it's to recover synths or technology they want, so when sending someone they take enough precautions to go in and get out.

I understand wanting that, but it seems a bit strange to want it from Ironsides. Not everything needs to have in depth characterization or everything having some relation to the main quest.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6459 on: December 02, 2016, 11:03:44 am »

Ironsides is just an example, I only singled that quest out because it very much typifies how Bethesda has handled the franchise as a whole.  How about Cabot House?  What about Dunwich Borers?  The Chinese missile sub that so isn't a poor reference to Fallout2 seewe'resavvytotheseriesroots?  The list goes on and on, I can enjoy the quests individually, but taken as a whole, they don't represent anything.

When I play Fallout I feel like all the information I'm learning has some meaning, that it makes the world more complete.  Same for Fallout 2, NV tries very hard, but there is something sort of lacking somehow (to me, it really does try, but it doesn't seem to line up.)  F3 and F4?  They feel like some silly ad-libs game, where stuff was just tossed out at random and then fleshed out without regard to how they work together.

But everyone is going to take something different away from every game, and I don't expect other people to feel the way I do.  It took me years to come to terms with Bethesda's approach because it didn't feel anything like Fallout to me, but I can accept that they are going their own way with it, I just wish they'd take a bit more care with the franchise.
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Arbinire

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6460 on: December 02, 2016, 04:06:02 pm »

Honestly I agree with NullForce.  While a lot of elements in New Vegas didn't tie into the main story, all of them, even the DLC tied into the world.  In the original games and New Vegas, you played a character in the world, but you weren't the main character, the world was.  Even the wacky elements that seemed out of place to the main story had tie-ins to the world.

In the Bethesda entries they make a point to say you're the main character and the world revolves around you...which works in TES, because those are games about the power/god fulfillment.  It falls flat in the Fallout universe though because, like NullForce says, that kind of driving point has no depth.  Everything has to be at face value in situation because the world now revolves around your character, instead of your character evolving in the world.
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KingofstarrySkies

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6461 on: December 02, 2016, 04:33:06 pm »

I'm pretty much in agreement. I think FO3 is okay. It is acceptable as a game. I think 4 is okay. It kind of grinds my gears in a lot of places but whatever, I can live with it. New Vegas, 2, and 1 are absolutely better games in my eyes entirely because of writing- New Vegas feels like a love letter to anyone who enjoyed Fallout 2 most days.

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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6462 on: December 02, 2016, 05:55:17 pm »

Also let's acknowledge this: it's perfectly fine to have throwaway "fun" quests which are (mostly) self-contained bits of storytelling that don't really connect to the outside world. The problem arises when they are the only thing that's there. in Fallout 4 and 3 quests that are like that are pretty much the only thing that's there apart from the main quest which is also like the side quests largely self-contained and seems to have no real bearing on the game world.

A good example of what I mean by that is the two weirdly similar big story events in Fallout 3 and 4

But the thing is I do enjoy Fallout 4. I absolutely abhor its main plot, the side quests which are all largely a variation on "go there, kill shit, bring back something" and its worldbuilding which leaves just so much to be desired, what I do love is turning off the quests and just building settlements.

Because then, the game stops being this hamfisted attempt at telling an entirely dull and predictable mystery story which feels entirely out of place with the surroundings and becomes something actually interesting.

Fallout 4 when you're just trying to build your settlements becomes a tale of trying to rebuild after a nuclear apocalypse. You start off with a small quaint suburb, and when you run out of resources you are forced to venture out, go scavenging for resources. It genuinely makes you feel like a scavenger salvaging bits from the remains of the old world in order to rebuild a new one. Scouring abandoned buildings for office fans and glass bottles and lightbulbs, fighting with raiders who have built a little fortress from the salvage, then taking whatever useful thing that's left and going back to your settlements to build more houses, more farms, more shops and thus slowly but surely build up something new from the ashes of the old.

For an example of what I'm talking about here's the tale from my latest playthrough. I went to Diamond City not because some meth-head old lady told me to, I went there because I grew tired of grabbing random bits of scrap to get the materials I needed and decided I'd be better off purchasing shipments. On the way there I got ambushed by raiders around Lexington, cleared out some settlements that were on the way and bought a spare dog from a random encounter. not because someone told me to but because they were an immediate threat and a longer-term obstacle between me and completing my dream of turning Sanctuary into a housing block estate. Then I figured out I didn't have enough money to buy all the shipments I wanted so I did a few odd jobs for people and then realized that one big shipment of stuff that I needed wasn't even available from the merchants in Diamond City so I made the perilous trek through the ruins of Boston to another town I heard of from a random guard in Diamond City, Goodneighbor. Then I carefully made my way back home to Sanctuary Hills, avoiding raider hotspots, listening to my environment and running like hell from any super mutants I saw (suiciders are no fun). All of this happened entirely organically, no quest was needed, nothing about a missing son or any of that. Merely the desire to build some more lovely lovely housing blocks on the Sanctuary Hills Council Estate And Post-Apocalyptic Society.

Then I realized that with my level of Community Leader I could've made shops of 2nd level and they too sell shipments and there was no need for that entirely self-motivated odyssey through the wastes.
 

What bugs me is just how easily settlements could be used to make the game actually interesting if they were a bit more in-depth and made a more central part of the plot. Because then when you've built up a small empire, you would actually feel threatened when that empire gets destabilized by the Institute or the BoS or whoever. You'd actually care because it wasn't just some random person whose life got ruined by the Institute/whoever, it'd be the settlements you've spent literal hours building and scavenging resources for. also because the world isn't procedurally generated there's some actual points of interest and you can actually put in quest hooks unlike so many survivalcrafting games

So what I'm trying to say with this meandering overly long textwall of a 12AM post/rant is, there's a good game and even narrative hidden under the actual gameplay and plot of Fallout 4. You just have to turn off the quest markers and embrace settlement building to get there. And also turn off fast travel but you already knew that Bethesda's fast travel system is kind of shit and makes you ignore vast swathes of the world in their entirety, right? (seriously do fast travel like in Morrowind. I want post-apoc busses from one settlement to another in exchange for some caps. The settlements in Fallout 4 are perfectly placed too, there's no quest location* that's too far away from a settlement or two. Have a brief canter through the game world, you might see something interesting and/or pretty.)

*excluding the one that has you go in the center of the Glowing Sea which is pretty much just a radioactive wasteland with nothing of interest for miles around. (but there's a settlement on its edge and walking through the Glowing Sea to a given goal is like 5 minutes real-time tops)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 05:57:34 pm by Krevsin »
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Jimmy

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6463 on: December 02, 2016, 08:46:39 pm »

What about Dunwich Borers?

Actually, I'd really love to see more of this in the official lore.

So far, to my knowledge, we've seen references in Fallout 3 (Dunwich Building) and Point Lookout (The Dark Heart of Blackhall), as well as Fallout 4 (Dunwich Borers). Sure, it might just be a throwaway stub in homage to Lovecraft, but I'd love to see a future game or DLC expand on it. Hell, Far Harbor would have been perfect, if you dumped the Child of Atom cult and repaced it with a Dunwich cult instead. Admittedly it might not mesh completely with the DLC story, but I'm sure you get my overall gist of the idea.
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nenjin

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Re: Fallout 4: It Just Works
« Reply #6464 on: December 02, 2016, 08:55:05 pm »

It's always been throw away Cthulhu references to me. Especially FO4:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For me it'd be genre breaking. FO4, despite super mutants and ghouls and what have you, is a not a fantasy world. There's no magic that I recall. If you right a real story around it, it's got to make sense for the world. And the threat of extra-dimensional beings and psychic power would grate against the sci-fi but ultimately realistic setting.

Wait, has there ever been psychic powers in any FO games? I seem to recall some Vault experiments with it...if FO made psionics part of the setting and really ran with it, I'd be ok with some real Lovecraft storylines. Right now thought it just feels bolted on to the edge of the setting.
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