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[Niddhoger]

Even so, without armor training they can't equip metal armor.  I'd rather shore up my dorfs defenses before kitting them out as glass cannons. 

As to leather shields, they weigh the same as standard bone.  However, leather tends to be harder to mass produce than wood.  I'd rather save leather for tunics, quivers, and bags while churning out willow shields.  Willow is a common enough tree to find near water, and it is almost half the weight of standard wood.  As has been pointed out, shield bashing is an emergency action.  Slight gains in bashing from using a copper shield typically don't outweigh the extra encumbrance (and thus slower speed/quicker exhaustion) from heavier shields. 

[angelious]

Even so, without armor training they can't equip metal armor.  I'd rather shore up my dorfs defenses before kitting them out as glass cannons. 

As to leather shields, they weigh the same as standard bone.  However, leather tends to be harder to mass produce than wood.  I'd rather save leather for tunics, quivers, and bags while churning out willow shields.  Willow is a common enough tree to find near water, and it is almost half the weight of standard wood.  As has been pointed out, shield bashing is an emergency action.  Slight gains in bashing from using a copper shield typically don't outweigh the extra encumbrance (and thus slower speed/quicker exhaustion) from heavier shields.

they can equip some armor.

i never get armor skills for my starting commander. and he always equips his iron breastplate and warhammer when i tell him to.


and still.we are talking about the starting military guy. so i dont think wasting too many points on armor is wise...specially considering you wont be having that many armor pieces laying about during the first year.

[mobucks]

In .34 I would always have two dwarfs to start the militia on embark with teacher 5 on both, dodge 5 on one and armor user 5 on the other. Those two very important defensive skills take the longest to train; by the time they are legendary in every other skill those two skills will still be ~level 10.

Armor is super important and I don't even set up a barracks or have them train until I have two full sets. A metal industry is a lot to set up for it but can still easily be set up in the first season.

IMO taking any other martial skills on embark is a waste. In .40 I've skipped teacher entirely and just give them both 5/5 armor user and dodge. Candidates are chosen for duty based on therapist's role % for teacher since these two will be training every recruit in the fort, and I think teacher trains faster if the dwarf has soul attributes that align well with it. Some dwarfs learn teacher incredibly fast, some pathetically slow.

[Albedo]

...specially considering you wont be having that many armor pieces laying about during the first year.

Take some copper ore + cassiterite on embark and you can have a squad all bronzed up very easily. 1 ore each = 1 suit + misc.

[Niddhoger]

Even so, without armor training they can't equip metal armor.  I'd rather shore up my dorfs defenses before kitting them out as glass cannons. 

As to leather shields, they weigh the same as standard bone.  However, leather tends to be harder to mass produce than wood.  I'd rather save leather for tunics, quivers, and bags while churning out willow shields.  Willow is a common enough tree to find near water, and it is almost half the weight of standard wood.  As has been pointed out, shield bashing is an emergency action.  Slight gains in bashing from using a copper shield typically don't outweigh the extra encumbrance (and thus slower speed/quicker exhaustion) from heavier shields.

they can equip some armor.

i never get armor skills for my starting commander. and he always equips his iron breastplate and warhammer when i tell him to.


and still.we are talking about the starting military guy. so i dont think wasting too many points on armor is wise...specially considering you wont be having that many armor pieces laying about during the first year.

You are missing the point.  He can equip that piece of armor, but without any skill to use it he'll be massively encumbered by it.  Dorfs wearing too much armor without the skill to use it move very slowly and over-exert themselves in it.  A dorf can easily pass out mid combat.  As has been said, 1 copper+1 cassiterite is 8 units of bronze made up right next to your wagon.  Considering the ore is only 6 dorf bucks each, it doesn't take much at all to crank out hte equipment for a full squad at embark.

[NullForceOmega]

And you're missing the point, due to being slowed down by the armor a dwarf  will be hit more often while sparring, and thus train armor user much faster than one without it.  I've modded in a suit of armor much heavier and more protective than the default gear, and I still get unstoppable legendaries that move like a gazelle in six to nine months.

[Albedo]

....  I think teacher trains faster if the dwarf has soul attributes that align well with it. Some dwarfs learn teacher incredibly fast, some pathetically slow.

From what I've observed, poor governing attributes don't slow down learning a skill. So if what you've observed is the case, then, purely as a guess, I'd have to say it's not soul attributes but personality traits that make the diff, same as many other Social skills.

[Niddhoger]

And you're missing the point, due to being slowed down by the armor a dwarf  will be hit more often while sparring, and thus train armor user much faster than one without it.  I've modded in a suit of armor much heavier and more protective than the default gear, and I still get unstoppable legendaries that move like a gazelle in six to nine months.

yeah, but if you are in an evil biome/near a tower you might not can wait 6 months to have a functioning military. Armor user also increases when the dorf ATTACKS while wearing armor- not just when they are attacked.  Think of it as mostly learning how to properly move in the armor since higher ranks don't reduce damage taken (only better material/quality armor does that).  Higher ranks reduce fatigue and allow a dorf to fight longer and move faster while wearing more and more armor.  If I get a tower ambush in the first summer, I want my dorfs to already have enough armor user to wear a full suit of bronze armor to go with their silver maces. 

If you aren't settling in a dangerous location, then you likely won't get attacked for a couple years unless you agressively push wealth early.  In which case... who cares? You'll have 80 dorfs and mad defenses constructed by then anyway. 

[NullForceOmega]

No, the only thing that trains armor user AT ALL is actually tanking strikes.  I have no idea where the hell you get your information Nidd, but it is wrong.

[Eldin00]

There was some recent !!science!! that shows shield bashing increasing armor user. But I've never seen any that shows armor user increasing from making any other sort of attack.

[NullForceOmega]

Yes, I read that thread, but it requires the soldier be dual wielding shields against a prone/unconscious target, and is almost certainly a bug.  Ultimately the ideal loadout will be based around your expected enemies on the embark and the available materials of your civilization, and two rank 5 teachers.

[Eldin00]

I don't know that it was ever verified that dual-wielding shields or an unconscious target was required. It's just that in that situation, dwarves will shield bash repeatedly, whereas they rarely do so otherwise, and the repeated shield bashing made someone notice the armor user gain. I'll have to test that in the next couple of days to determine whether shield bashes always increase armor user, or only in limited circumstances.

I agree though that it's most likely a bug.


edit:
Ok, I've tested this, and how it seems to work (at least in arena/adventure mode where I can control a dwarf and force shield bashing at will):
Regardless of the type or state of the opponent, or the number of shields you have equipped, when you hit an opponent with your shield, you gain 0-3xp in armor user. You gain 0 if you aren't wearing any items with the ARMORLEVEL token. If you are wearing any armor, the details of the armor you are wearing determines how much XP you get per strike.

[NullForceOmega]

In other words not a viable method to ensure gains in armor user, so right back to square one with needing to take kits to level the skill, unless you force all of your dwarves to dual wield shields (thereby reducing training effectiveness by removing actual weapons from the equation).  Glad that's sorted out.

[Eldin00]

Correct. You'll get some small gains from it, but it's difficult (in fortress mode, at least) to find a consistent way to get the dwarves to shield bash frequently enough to make a big difference.