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Author Topic: What's wrong with schooling nowadays?  (Read 2514 times)

Mesa

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What's wrong with schooling nowadays?
« on: May 31, 2015, 05:17:35 pm »

Before anything else, let me start off by saying that I am not against learning or education as a whole - it's definitely not wrong to want to learn new things or polish up the knowledge you already have.
What I am against is the way it's currently done through standardized, compulsory public schooling.

Sure - it may have worked in the 19th century when it was first conceived. It very much follows a factory line model, with people being taught (kind of like materials being processed) by teachers in batches, seperated by age (which is ridiculous because it's far from the only common trait kids share, and definitely not one they should be grouped by) and there's a deadline for them being up to a certain level - if they're not, they're treated like they're malfunctioning in some way and thrown back onto the school factory line again with the next grade. Or just straight up kicked out like they don't deserve to be there.

It's a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of boredom, and as a result, and not a whole lot of actual learning - it's forced onto people without them being offered a lot of flexibility. You don't like learning right now? Sucks to be you, this is math class time. You don't like math? Sucks to be you, it's compulsory. You want to learn  about art instead? You're out of luck, then.

It's becoming more and more standardized as far as tests go as well, which just makes matters even worse.
I think it's been established for a while now that everyone is different in terms of how quickly they develop or what interests them - try as you might, some people just cannot grasp [insert class here]. Especially when they aren't enjoying what they're learning. Whether it's due to non-engaging teachers, bad environment (which includes factors like disruptive classmates or the classroom itself) or not seeing the point of learning it (a lot of people keep complaining about how they will not need high school-level math later in life, and from what I've been told, they're right for the most part), there are far too many things that discourage people from school, result in their grades being terrible and ruining their school situation.

And yet there aren't very many alternatives to this sort of model - there are some of course, but none of them are large-scale or well-known. I myself am currently in a very tight spot with school due to multiple reasons, but not all of them are due to my own fault, despite everyone's claims to be otherwise.

My point of view might be kind of biased and I might come across as some lazy bastard who doesn't see that he's the one at fault and instead decides to blame it all on the system, but I think this website covers a lot of what I want to talk about. However I felt like asking about this here because I think it's something that needs to be talked about a bit more often, and I want to hear what you guys have to say on the matter.

Is compulsory education good or bad? What should be changed about it?

I'm the first one to admit that a global education reform is not gonna happen anytime soon for multiple reasons (economical being one of them), but if we want to change it, we ought to start somewhere.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 07:43:23 pm by Maks »
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Graknorke

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2015, 05:24:38 pm »

Education is pretty great, and it's important that it's mandatory. If you want an educated society it's not going to happen by letting children choose whether they want to go to school or not. Because near all of them won't choose a balanced education at all.
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Mesa

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2015, 05:37:27 pm »

Education is pretty great, and it's important that it's mandatory. If you want an educated society it's not going to happen by letting children choose whether they want to go to school or not. Because near all of them won't choose a balanced education at all.

I mean, I get that there's just some baseline things that are important and I won't deny that - a basic understanding of mathematics, history, language (native and foreign) and science is crucial no matter how you slice or dice it. I will give you that.

However it's also important to teach them more practical skills and knowledge. Like how to organize and plan your time/day/life. Or how to manage your finances. Stuff like that is probably significantly more important in daily life than the the patriotic messages behind Polish 19th century literature if you ask me. School claims to prepare children for the real world yet it fails to actually incorporate practical things that do matter in life.

If someone is into, say, advanced mathematics, sure, let them further study them and pursue that knowledge. But don't pretend that you can teach it to anybody and expect them to make the same amount of use out of them later in life, it's just a very unrealistic assumption given how much time and effort is being put into teaching it.

However if people were given more choice in what they want to learn as opposed to have so much useless information crammed into their heads through some rather brute force approaches, it all would be looking way better.

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Graknorke

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2015, 05:48:35 pm »

However it's also important to teach them more practical skills and knowledge. Like how to organize and plan your time/day/life. Or how to manage your finances.
While the education system does try to teach those things, they're really not the kind of thing you can teach. They have to be learned through experience. If it could be taught then I would definitely have a much better grasp of my shit than I do. Alas, it's not so.
And I hear a lot of people my age impotently whining about how school doesn't teach them what taxes are and how they work, but for one, they do, and for two, if you don't know how taxes work despite living in a society where they are commonplace, maybe the problem is with you and not the system. Nobody expects to be taught how to do other menial things like vacuuming and ironing, for example.

If someone is into, say, advanced mathematics, sure, let them further study them and pursue that knowledge. But don't pretend that you can teach it to anybody and expect them to make the same amount of use out of them later in life, it's just a very unrealistic assumption given how much time and effort is being put into teaching it.
How advanced is advanced? Because at least by my idea of it, mandatory maths education doesn't even come close. Nothing pre-degree does either.

so much useless information crammed into their heads
Besides how it sounds like you have some personal grievances here, a lot of supposedly useless material isn't useless at all, but because the benefit isn't seen by the student until later they're going to think it's useless at the time.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 05:51:49 pm by Graknorke »
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Shook

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2015, 06:01:33 pm »

So, from what i can gather (and in very simplified terms), you're speaking for more flexibility in the educational system. If that is indeed the case, i totally agree. Sure, after public school, you can more or less pick a very general direction (danish education tends to follow 3 steps; 10 years of public school, 3 of years high school and then 2-8 years of university or equivalent), but there is absolutely no way to tailor that choice better to more specific needs/desires.

EXAMPLE: I am studying for IT engineer, in a manner that by and large focuses on programming. There are two other parallel lines of study, which are much more focused on electronics. During the entire first year, all three lines have identical classes, end of story. This means that the electronic folks get to be tormented by programming, and programmers get tormented by electronics. I am probably one of the more whiny students, but my impression is that most students really don't like having to have classes that are only tangentially related to their particular line, and are generally not doing well at these classes (barring the "i can literally learn everything easily" people). That is definitely my case as well, and i REALLY WISH there was a way for me to filter out the 5%-chance-to-be-used-later-so-just-slog-through-eh-wot classes, since university level maths is absolutely killing me. It's conflicting massively with how my thinking works, and that's one thing i really don't know how to change.

So yeah, a degree of flexibility in the later educational things would be nice. Public school equivalents definitely need to be mandatory, and high school is still a good idea to go to. Just pray to your stars that one of the university degrees will fit your interests, else you're in for a tough time. :v
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Mesa

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2015, 06:03:38 pm »

It might be true that I might need [insert specific topic I hated to learn at the time], but is it really going to be worth the amount of time, effort and frustration put into trying to learn it when I could have instead spent that time learning something more immediately useful?

Plus if someone would tell me how it could be useful I'd be less "salty" about being forced to learn about it (and heck, maybe even actually enjoy it), but when I'm being to told to learn [this, this and this] without being explicitly told what is the purpose, then it just feels like it's done for the sake of doing it and therefore wrong.

"It might be useful to you when you least expect it" is simply not going to cut it for a lot of people as a motivation to learn something.
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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2015, 06:06:17 pm »

ptw

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2015, 06:16:44 pm »

Nobody expects to be taught how to do other menial things like vacuuming and ironing, for example.
Nobody may expect to be taught that, but from everything I've seen a lot of people could stand it. Least where I'm at, it's not uncommon at all to run into an adult/young adult who has no idea how to do a lot of basic personal maintenance stuff, or have an understanding of it that's... not good.

Parents have been increasing unable to really spend the time needed to thoroughly teach their kids stuff like that, and, well, schools are generally the backup plan for incompetent or incapable parents. Internet helps a lot, but there's still a lot of people, young and otherwise, that don't really grok the concept of an internet search. Or just don't know what to search for.

To the more general conversation, yeah, it'd be nice if teachers and the folks that dictate curriculum to them were a bit more on the ball about providing rationalizations to the learners about why they're being taught stuff. That's been a problem for a long while, from everything I understand. You'd think it'd be pretty easy to do, but to be fair to a lot of teachers they're often under a lot of stress that makes stuff like that more difficult than it, by all rights, should be. If they had a better support network, or better training, that might alleviate things a bit, but, well. That would mostly take money, and even maintaining education funding is often like trying to draw blood from a stone, nevermind increasing it.
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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2015, 06:21:57 pm »

Oh jeez, here we go. Another edgy 'I am super smart' teenager. I'm guessing you're 14-17 years old, male, upper middle class, etc. Going to a nice high school in the suburbs somewhere on the east coast? Breaking news, yes, a good portion of what you learn in high school is not useful to real life. Everyone knows that. But your highschool gears itself to being a highschool that prepares people for college. And that means it's not really about the matirial. That's all rubbish. But high school teaches you the things some of the things you already talked about.

However it's also important to teach them more practical skills and knowledge. Like how to organize and plan your time/day/life. Or how to manage your finances.

How to organize and plan your time around assignments, homework, clubs/sports teams. Just like in the real world where you need to think around deadlines/obligations. If your high school does not offer a Fin Lit unit, that sucks, mine did. And your highschool is geared around prepping you for college. You could have gone to a technical school if you wanted the more practical experience. It's likely that you had no idea that was avalible/your parents restricted you from doing it. And how your high school preps you for college is by teaching you things colleges like to see on a transcript. Stuff like Calculus is often required by most colleges out there.

It might be true that I might need [insert specific topic I hated to learn at the time], but is it really going to be worth the amount of time, effort and frustration put into trying to learn it when I could have instead spent that time learning something more immediately useful?

What is immediately useful to a upper middle class teenager? You don't need to work, parents are there for you. You don't have finances to balance. You have a easy path to college because money. So you should study the things that will help you there.

The kind of school you are going to is the kind of school that will be useful to you. It gives you courses that look good on your transcript, teaches you how to study, and be effective in higher education. tl;dr the school you are going to is designed to teach you how to learn, so you can learn more later.

redwallzyl

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2015, 06:39:41 pm »

i for one learned how to iron, sew, basic cooking and do taxes in school as well as having a planning course so i don't know what you are talking about with that.
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Megaman

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2015, 07:22:59 pm »

Many people make the mistake of claiming that education and schooling are the same thing. What is education? It is the act of an individual growing intellectually through the instruction of others, or otherwise learning new things from previously developed knowledge. Having established that, education is perpetual and inescapable. Parents educate their children constantly, from teaching them how to walk to how to properly manage finances. There are many ways to become educated, whether it is from being mentored, self education (i.e the kid who learns how to code in C++ by himself), watching (the right kind) of TV, and traditional classroom schooling.

Compulsory education is, therefore, a misnomer. This thread should instead be titled "What's wrong with schooling nowadays," because schooling is not necessarily education -  I can show up to a class and learn nothing (which is precisely the problem for a lot of kids in modern public school).

Teaching a classroom full of students is always inefficient for the individual student. Everyone perceives the world differently, and to learn something they need to receive information that is tailored to their individual perceptions. However, the traditional classroom only has one teacher, and the teacher can only teach one lesson at a time, so the teacher cannot tailor the lesson to each individual student. A good teacher teaches a lesson in a manner that most of his or her audience can understand, but no teacher is perfect and it is impossible to teach in a way that works well for absolutely everyone.

While there are several upsides to schooling in general, public schooling is an arm of the state, and is therefore highly inflexible and has difficulty adapting to individual students. What if a student works best in a classroom when learning math, but is a genius and can understand advanced literature at a rate even advanced classes fail to teach? Most students are differentiated like this to some level, but are forced into the rigid structure of the classroom environment where at least some of their learning time is wasted.

Compulsory public schooling is a terrible idea that should be done away with. How can you expect to cultivate intelligence in the youth of society if they are taught to see learning as a chore- something that is forced upon them and ultimately fails to teach them anything? Parents love their children and want to see them educated, if you take the responsibility of education away from the state and to the parents the parents will fulfill that responsibility. If a parent really is so apathetic, what is to stop him or her from placing their child into the hands of tutors or private schooling? If you worry about social equity, it would be easy enough to give grants to low-income families with which they can use to send their children to be educated in this manner. Letting parents construct individualized plans for their own children would remove the problem of inflexibility in modern education, and as a result remove a lot of the anxiety and dejection students face at schools today.
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Re: What's wrong with schooling nowadays?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2015, 12:35:59 am »

Megaman, I have a very simple response to that, and to the OPs question.  74.5 MILLION school age children in 2015 in the U.S. alone.  If you don't see why this is a problem both for making schools better and for doing away with them, I don't think you can even begin to tackle this issue.
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i2amroy

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Re: What's wrong with schooling nowadays?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 04:52:51 am »

So I'm a person who has two teacher's as parents (with some 60 or so years of teaching between the two of them). I have been listening to my parents talk about teacher/education things my entire life, and I'd like to think that I've at least picked up something from those many many years of conversations. I'd like to start with one important note: While there are many students/parents of students that are perfectly cool with their child and school, there is also a vast majority of them that are total idiots about things. I'm talking about the type of parent who comes in and demands that their little baby be given a passing grade three days before grades are due... despite the fact that they have a 12% in the class and have done literally nothing for the last 8 weeks but distract other students and talk in class. Now you would think that these would be quite rare, but from conversations with my parents I have learned that they are in fact quite common.

Yes, individualized learning is a wonderful thing, and is definitely something that should be done for more intelligent kids (my dad was the head of his school's gifted program for several years), but honestly it's not something that you can count on lower level kids to accomplish on their own. The reason that going to school is mandatory is because without it we end up with a fairly big chunk that would miss out on opportunities and know absolutely nothing. (And if you'd like to point out that they aren't learning much anyways, I'd note that I've seen several examples of problem students who have been turned around; students that wouldn't have been able to be turned like that if they weren't being forced to be there every day).

Tests - Standardized tests are horrible, but not really because of the conception. While there are several smaller problems with the idea (for example basing everything on test results instead of a more wide profiling of a student or teacher), I'd honestly say that the biggest problems right now are the companies that are making the tests. We've got horrible problems with graders, test questions, stupid testing overall, and the fact that basically everyone who handles any of that is forced to sign documents swearing themselves to secrecy means that almost none of these huge problems ever see the light of day. There are big steps that can be done there to fix things.

Practical skills - Personally I learned the basics of cooking, budgeting, and a few other skills while in late middle school. I'm also for the setting up of government subsidized trade schools. Right now the vast majority are for-profit ones, which means that you get a basically worthless education while paying several times more than it would cost to go to a state college and take classes in what you are interested in.

I'd also say that there is a fair portion of skills learned in high school that do have practical applications, they just aren't ones that people normally think about. For some easy ones things like algebra show up in everyday life fairly common. Simple things like dividing up a check or doing a rough calculation of tax is algebra. Geometry isn't that uncommon either, personally my family has built a fair portion of our own house, and geometry is dang important when you are doing things like building decks and laying pipes. :P English doesn't seem like it's that important, unless you know a secret. There have been several institutes that specialize in nothing but testing, to help people figure out things about themselves (what careers might be a good fit, where might they be successful in life) and so on. When queried what the biggest factor they found in relating success to anything else, every one queried gave the answer of "vocabulary size". Having a large vocabulary and knowing how to use it to essentially sound smart and sophisticated was the biggest common factor any of them found with success in life, and that's what English is for. Things like physics, chemistry, or biology? Not so much, though I can say that I've used the basics of knowledge in all three to occasionally accomplish things that I wouldn't have been able to do without the knowledge. In history, on the other hand, probably the most important thing to learn is how people think. Names, dates, and places aren't the important things there, it's the why's that matter. If you can learn how people think, then those are lessons you can apply later to other parts of your life.

So in all I'd say keep compulsory education, but open up more routes for later in life when students actually can tell what they are doing. I've mentioned this several times before in other places, but the fact is that, physically, your brain isn't truly developed enough to know "what you are going to do with your life", until you hit your early 20's, because the parts that deal with deep self-introspection just haven't fully developed yet. Sure you might think you like art instead of math now, but by forcing you to keep all of your options open while you are younger and physically unable to truly know yourself we make it so that you don't accidentally lock yourself into a path only to discover several years later that you really never wanted to be an artist. (This is also the reason why the vast majority of college students switch majors at least once; they are finally developing enough that they can know what they actually want to do with their life.)

Also make music compulsory. My dad has a two-inch thick folder completely filled with studies about how being involved in music improves literally every aspect of your life, from your reading, writing, and math scores, to your friendships, to the amount of trouble they get into, to your personality, to your average success levels, everything. He has another folder with some 50 or so stories from students who have literally had their lives saved from suicide or whatever by being involved in a music program. Seriously, get people involved in some sort of music program, and everything else gets better just as a side effect.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 04:56:44 am by i2amroy »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: What's wrong with schooling nowadays?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2015, 05:52:13 am »

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Mesa

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Re: What's wrong with education nowadays?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2015, 06:31:17 am »

Oh jeez, here we go. Another edgy 'I am super smart' teenager. I'm guessing you're 14-17 years old, male, upper middle class, etc. Going to a nice high school in the suburbs somewhere on the east coast? Breaking news, yes, a good portion of what you learn in high school is not useful to real life. Everyone knows that. But your highschool gears itself to being a highschool that prepares people for college. And that means it's not really about the matirial. That's all rubbish. But high school teaches you the things some of the things you already talked about.

However it's also important to teach them more practical skills and knowledge. Like how to organize and plan your time/day/life. Or how to manage your finances.

How to organize and plan your time around assignments, homework, clubs/sports teams. Just like in the real world where you need to think around deadlines/obligations. If your high school does not offer a Fin Lit unit, that sucks, mine did. And your highschool is geared around prepping you for college. You could have gone to a technical school if you wanted the more practical experience. It's likely that you had no idea that was avalible/your parents restricted you from doing it. And how your high school preps you for college is by teaching you things colleges like to see on a transcript. Stuff like Calculus is often required by most colleges out there.

It might be true that I might need [insert specific topic I hated to learn at the time], but is it really going to be worth the amount of time, effort and frustration put into trying to learn it when I could have instead spent that time learning something more immediately useful?

What is immediately useful to a upper middle class teenager? You don't need to work, parents are there for you. You don't have finances to balance. You have a easy path to college because money. So you should study the things that will help you there.

The kind of school you are going to is the kind of school that will be useful to you. It gives you courses that look good on your transcript, teaches you how to study, and be effective in higher education. tl;dr the school you are going to is designed to teach you how to learn, so you can learn more later.

You're making a lot of assumptions about me here, all of which except the fact I'm male are false.
I'm 18, I go to a...maybe slightly below average high school (far from the bottom but certainly not the most prestigious in the area) and my financial situation is actually pretty bad. So no, I don't have "an easy path to college".
Heck, I don't even want to go to college. It's just not for me. From what I can gather, a degree these days doesn't guarantee anything - yes, it helps a lot with getting a job, but the idea of "graduate high school, go to college, get degree, get a job, win life" is very much an outdated concept.

School, in my experience (which may differ from others', not gonna lie) has made learning feel like an unrewarding chore that you "just have to do" that has the sole purpose of padding one's resume for job/college applications, which just feels arbitrary and artificial.

If the sole purpose of high school is to teach people rubbish as a means of preparing them for higher education and ends up discouraging them from doing that, it's no wonder that the college drop-out rate is so high nowadays.
Yet there's a lot of people who accomplished great things while being college drop-outs - notable examples Mark Zuckenberg, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates.
Of course that doesn't mean that not going to college is the way to go for one to be successful - both paths can work, but making college seem like the only right one is a little wrong.


Sure, I don't want to go to college, so why do I care about education being broken?
It doesn't take a degree to realize that the system is simply put bullshit and not fit for a decent chunk of the 21st century population. And even for the part of the population that is okay with it, it too could be better.

There's definitely a decent amount of positives to schooling, especially compared to how it used to be before the advent of compulsory schooling, but there's also a lot of downsides that just kind of go unnoticed or ignored, which simply should not be the case.

I'm not claiming to be the guy who single-handedly attempted to overthrow and abolish schooling. I don't have the perfect solution, or indeed any kind of solid solution. I'm the first to admit that I'm not in the power to do so, and there are people who probably know and have a lot more to say about the subject than I do, but what I do want is for people to realize how schooling actually works and that it's not completely unjustified to be dissatisfied with it.

Also, I highly recommend watching a couple videos on the subject. In particular these two - Do we still need schools? by Nikhil Goyal and Changing Education Paradigms by Ken Robinson.
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