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[Rolepgeek]

Sighing. Annoyance.

"...Very well....if you wish to debate every small point....and insert words into my mouth, I will oblige...to your first point, I respond that you cannot be sure of that, because you did not bother to check....unless you did so in secret, which is doubtful...to your second point, I said that all systems are flawed...I did not say they were better than no system...some systems are not...to your third point, what evidence?...do you mean a lack of evidence to the contrary?"


"Allow me to make my opinion clear...the Growth of a kingdom is still Growth, even if it casts others into Shadow....so long as the method of it's Growth does not significantly impede or interfere with the Growth of other...things, for lack of a better word...then I accept, and even support it....I have seen nothing to indicate life being worse in this new kingdom, or Progress being slower...if I do see something of the sort, perhaps I shall change my mind..."

"Speaking of which...Patronius, I have two questions of you now...the first, what does being a part of that kingdom entail?...the second, what method....or series of methods, do they use to acquire new territory...?...and beyond those questions, I have something else to tell you..."

"Should your new kingdom harm or attempt to conquer the Great Trees through force or coercion...rather than diplomacy or simply leaving them be, once their borders meet with the Great Trees....then that kingdom will fall into dust, ruin, and Shadow...as rebellion and discontent Grows within it's heart like a festering parasite...and it's enemies Grow strong on it's weakened borders...even as it is strangled by it's own oversized bureaucracy...I do not appreciate either Mortal or God interfering with the garden I tend...I do not mean this as a threat..."


"....I mean it as a warning, and a promise."

((That would explain a bit of how we keep getting thrown off your trail then...I mean, what? I didn't say anything.))

[~Neri]

((No Stirk.))

((You are the Agent.))

[FArgHalfnr]

I agree to form the pantheon with Ilseth and Uztot

"You all seem to assume...a great deal...power is far more than coin...whether it is capitalism or communism...democracy or dictatorship....power lies in loyalty, and strength of will...power lies in knowledge, and perception....the versions of these that are purchased are mere Shadows of their true nature...it is rare for purchased loyalty to be true until death...and nothing, Liuthus, is ever truly assured...nor is he necessarily interested in power...some merely want comforts and a simple life...would you attack the poor fellow for wanting something better for himself and his family...?...a merchant provides a service, that of distributing and transporting goods...it is not a perfect system, perhaps, but no system ever is...let Progress run it's course...if tribal societies are communist....then would not capitalism be progress...only being possible in more advanced societies?..."

"...and you 'united' Humanity under your priests, Iliseth regardless....of whether they wished to be united or not...what someone wants, and what is best for them, are not always the same....all of you make far too much fuss about such matters..."

I have to disagree on a few points my friend. Tribal societies naturally favor those in power, meaning that they are not communist. I also believe that my nation have progressed enough to no longer be considered tribal, as they have permanents settlements, a stable government and plenty of scientific knowledge. And finally, I do not see capitalism as an advancement over communism, as an equal society is happier than one were wealth is largely owned by a small elite.

"Should your new kingdom harm or attempt to conquer the Great Trees through force or coercion...rather than diplomacy or simply leaving them be, once their borders meet with the Great Trees....then that kingdom will fall into dust, ruin, and Shadow...as rebellion and discontent Grows within it's heart like a festering parasite...and it's enemies Grow strong on it's weakened borders...even as it is strangled by it's own oversized bureaucracy...I do not appreciate either Mortal or God interfering with the garden I tend...I do not mean this as a threat..."

This one of the reasons why I am opposed to see patronius implement capitalism within my borders. He has no right to choose for them. Regardless if he attempts to bring his ideology by empowering those who already seek it or by more direct actions, he is behind this and cannot claim that he is simply helping people. He helps those whose goals align with his, which is no different than enforcing his will, as those opposed to him suffer all the same.


I hope you see this disagreement of ours as nothing more than a debate, as I do. I do not want to see a divide between the two of us.

[DreamerGhost]

((So we gonna ever get tick 11 income calculations? You said wed get some from tick 12 sometime, but I'd take even 11))

[Andres]

I listen to prayers. Any asking me to save them from Frederick or is everyone just kinda alright with his rule? (Humanity was spread out originally so I'm guessing different cultures developed over the centuries.)

[Stirk]

((So we gonna ever get tick 11 income calculations? You said wed get some from tick 12 sometime, but I'd take even 11))

((Tick 11 calcs have been done for a week. I remember you complaining about them.))

[DreamerGhost]

((So we gonna ever get tick 11 income calculations? You said wed get some from tick 12 sometime, but I'd take even 11))

((Tick 11 calcs have been done for a week. I remember you complaining about them.))

((I somehow mixed up tick 12 and 13. My point is, last two turns have no calculations and I have no clue what I can actualy do without killing myself.))

[Rolepgeek]

"I refer to true tribal societies, the earliest of their sort...if I remember correctly, for humans, at least...they were primarily led by a council of elders within each tribe...and there was no need for even so much as a barter system...in the short time before Iliseth created the Theocracies, at least....I'm guessing that only in times of war, when a single decisive leader is more beneficial, would they have migrated away from that...and even then, it would only become permanent...once those leaders intentionally remained at war until their power was cemented..."

"Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what capitalism means, Liuthus...or perhaps simply different ideas of what makes people happy...nor do I wish to be in Conflict with you, my friend...our spheres mesh too well to be held back by simple differences of opinion...though I am curious now...would you consider Sapling society communist...or benevolent dictatorship? And I think it would be interesting to hear Uztot's thoughts as well...considering the nature of their relationship with the Great Trees..."

"...finally, my real concern with your ire is just....he seems to be teaching a mortal how to do something...if the other Maag...or was it an Aag?...it is difficult to keep them straight anymore, my apologies...but if the others do not want to participate, will they not simply refuse to purchase his goods...?...capitalism requires buyer and seller, after all...besides, education is Progress, is it not?...on another note...now I am curious...how does a communist society trade with external entities?..."

[Andres]

((So we gonna ever get tick 11 income calculations? You said wed get some from tick 12 sometime, but I'd take even 11))

((Tick 11 calcs have been done for a week. I remember you complaining about them.))

((I somehow mixed up tick 12 and 13. My point is, last two turns have no calculations and I have no clue what I can actualy do without killing myself.))

(We also don't know if Utther is still mortal-sealed. It's kind of an important thing to know whether the wrathful god of Destruction is active or not.)

"So, Lithus and Uztot, what should we name our pantheon? Should we name it at all?" (Might be important if another pantheon pops up and I'm making a GM/Pantheon Only action.)

EDIT: "The ILU (pronounced ee-loo) Pantheon, perhaps?"

[Vgray]

"I will say that I am intrigued by your kin Brother Teburshe. They are truly unique among our children. So are the Aag species."

[DontBanTheMan]

Regardless if he attempts to bring his ideology by empowering those who already seek it or by more direct actions, he is behind this and cannot claim that he is simply helping people. He helps those whose goals align with his, which is no different than enforcing his will, as those opposed to him suffer all the same.

I would like to admit that you are correct about some things while incorrect about others.
1. I pay attention to ANY who PRAY to me; not simply those who wish to conquer the universe or some nonsense. If one were to pray to me questioning how he might equalize the social structure of a country, I would aid him.
2. You have proven that you have no clue what my goals are, so you have no place to speak as if you do.
3. Suffer all the same? Hogwash.
4. I will, however, admit that I possess bias toward those who align with my spheres. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. I will, however, tell you what; I will NOT give any assistance to the merchant aside from the knowledge of capitalism. If you still wish to ban my worship for the simply act of giving knowledge to mortals, you have proven that you are lying to yourself and everyone else when you state that you are the God of Progress. Progress is forward movement, and this cannot be accomplished by restricting ideas.

"Should your new kingdom harm or attempt to conquer the Great Trees through force or coercion...rather than diplomacy or simply leaving them be, once their borders meet with the Great Trees....then that kingdom will fall into dust, ruin, and Shadow...as rebellion and discontent Grows within it's heart like a festering parasite...and it's enemies Grow strong on it's weakened borders...even as it is strangled by it's own oversized bureaucracy...I do not appreciate either Mortal or God interfering with the garden I tend...I do not mean this as a threat..."

Keep in mind that Frederick's nation is the Great Tribe. I'd also like to point out this part of Tick 13: "He seems to want to expand into other races, though seems to prefer doing it more peacefully to avoid all out warfare."
Frederick is not the warmonger that the others make him out to be. Sure, he desires more power. This does not mean he wants to kill everything else!

[FArgHalfnr]

"I refer to true tribal societies, the earliest of their sort...if I remember correctly, for humans, at least...they were primarily led by a council of elders within each tribe...and there was no need for even so much as a barter system...in the short time before Iliseth created the Theocracies, at least....I'm guessing that only in times of war, when a single decisive leader is more beneficial, would they have migrated away from that...and even then, it would only become permanent...once those leaders intentionally remained at war until their power was cemented..."

"Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what capitalism means, Liuthus...or perhaps simply different ideas of what makes people happy...nor do I wish to be in Conflict with you, my friend...our spheres mesh too well to be held back by simple differences of opinion...though I am curious now...would you consider Sapling society communist...or benevolent dictatorship? And I think it would be interesting to hear Uztot's thoughts as well...considering the nature of their relationship with the Great Trees..."

"...finally, my real concern with your ire is just....he seems to be teaching a mortal how to do something...if the other Maag...or was it an Aag?...it is difficult to keep them straight anymore, my apologies...but if the others do not want to participate, will they not simply refuse to purchase his goods...?...capitalism requires buyer and seller, after all...besides, education is Progress, is it not?...on another note...now I am curious...how does a communist society trade with external entities?..."

Now I understand your argument better with this definition of a tribal society. We would need to see whenever an elder council or a single leader is the norm, if there is any. I believe each tribe have the possibility of having a different ruling system, which would make any generalization quite hard to be made.

Your saplings present an interesting case. Are the great tree to be looked as a class within the system, or are they simply performing a set of duties imposed by the nature of their gender? If the latter, we would need to compare how great trees fare compared to each other, but even in this case, would a society were one gender has a monopoly on power be considered a dictatorship? I wonder if the concepts of communism and dictatorship can even apply to this species. Perhaps we will need to come up with a new name for this unique system.

The merchant was a Maag. Saag is probably the other name you were looking for, as Aag refer to the group that they form together, along with the newly created Yaag. The lizardmen, while being members of the Aag nation, are not classified as a Aag species, as this group only covers the three sapient species I designed to complement each other. This doesn't mean that the lizardmen are discriminated against, as this classification has no impact on the rights of a species. Rather, it is only meant to be a scientific classification. Kinda like all wolf shaped wildlife can be classified in a single group. Kinship between members of the nation is encouraged, and discrimination would be counter-productive to that purpose.

Finally, regarding my actions against capitalism were done because I believe this system would work against my goals. One advantage, and main reason of my choice for my current system is that it allow people to work on any project without the fear of lacking the funds to sustain themselves along with their project. In a capitalist society, only those with a decent amount of funds could work on these kind of projects, and even then, they would need to make a profit from this if they want to work on it at full time. Special funding could be granted, but then we would need to establish measures to make sure no one attempt to cheat the system, which would cost resources and require many employees. I have decided to make my own system, which would be created to enable these things from the start, rather than creating workarounds and fixes for a preexisting system. And then you also have to take in account that each of my species are specialized for some tasks, some of which would not be necessarily able to earn a profit in a capitalist system. As for your question on trade, anything earned from it is shared in the village in which the merchant. The great council then makes sure that resources are properly distributed between villages and the nation as a whole. As I mentioned earlier, this system is not quite communist, but greatly inspired by it and altered to suit my purposes.

Sorry if I have been rambling for too long, I do not see time pass when I discuss of something that interest me.


Oh, and Illiseth, I have no problem with the name you proposed. We can always change it if we want in the future.

Edit: ((Sorry dontbantheman, I noticed your post too late. I'll either edit this post or make another one to answer you when I have time.))

Edit2:

snip

I have a feeling that this arguing is leading to nowhere. We both believe to be right and arguing does not seem to change anything. Still, I will respond to you, if only to be polite.
1- Indeed. It just so happens that those who pray to you are interested in power and money, as they are your aspects. More on this on point 4.
2- While I admit that I do not know your goals, they clearly are incompatible with mine in this particular case. We would not have this conflict otherwise.
3- They clearly do not benefit from seeing their opponent's cause win. perhaps my choice of words was not ideal to convey what I meant.
4- This is of course to be expected from any god. The problem is that your alignment is working against mine in the current situation. I have nothing to win from an open war with you, but if you insist on pushing your goals in my territory, I will be forced to take more drastic actions.
As for the matter of ideologies, I do not believe they can be put on a progress scale the same way technology can. Each ideology is suited to a different purpose, and depending on the way each is interpreted and applied, they can lead to a large variety of results and level of efficiency. I believe my system is better suited than the others for the purpose I intended it to have. As you said, progress is going forward, not in an ambiguous sideways path that could quite possibly take you backwards.

[Andres]

I grant as much of the following as I can to the non-Frederick Humans with 1E (some might completely or partially exist so I don't know+pantheon discount might make some cost 0E) with the first being higher priority: animal domestication (horse-back riding level), mining, masonry, metalworking, archery, currency, irrigation. I tell them how they can use Art to use these technologies better.

I personally teach the Aag how to use Art, assuming Lithus hasn't already.

[Ama]

Interested Teeththeif: Doesn't that describe most life on the fragments?
Frightened Teeththief: He seems to have been attacked by some form of spirit while in the Dreams of another, which had driven him out.
Shadow Kobolds: All these new adventurers seem harder to scare in nightmares! How can I still effect them?
Teeththief: Should Cursed Wolf-teeth be worth more then human teeth? Should we value them by size, or how much the being needed them?
Human Totem Magic Practitioner: So many of my Friends cause nightmares! It is fun when there is only one or two, but if I want to talk to several of my Friends at once not even I can take it! How can I resist nightmares longer?

"Yes, its a very broad sphere."
(Are they the things I created?)
"Perhaps you should work together with your friends to create better nightmares."
"To have the cursed teeth of a wolf is a nice trophy, brave Teeththief. I say you should value them by how difficult it most be to their teeth."
"Worship me. Doing so shall free you of the nightmares and allow you to join your friends in making nightmares." If he agrees spend 1 essence to allow him to do what I said.

[Andres]

(I'd forgotten to strikethrough the "blast Frederick" action before. It's done now. The action is entirely and officially cancelled.)