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Author Topic: X-Com Chimera Squad  (Read 733557 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4095 on: February 06, 2016, 01:25:31 pm »

Once again, if they didn't have a free move they'd just get utterly massacred.
You ever think thats because the devs are doing something wrong? I mean, if you're just gonna have the enemies spawn when you see them, then why not just have them spawn in cover? Boom, no more need for a free movement turn.

As per the ambush thing, isn't that kind of the point? You only get one ambush, shouldn't it be more powerful than killing ONE enemy? I mean, they pit you against 15-20 guys on a mission, killing one of them is actually less effective than most normal turns.
I said at least one guy. If there wasn't any 'dive to cover' thing then it would be like that every time you encountered an enemy patrol.

And I prefer this system to 'spawn in cover' because 1) The difference isn't existent, really. The difference is literally 'do you see them dive to cover?' and 2) I'm pretty sure people don't sit there permanently in cover in real life, so it'd seem a bit silly.

Cover is also strictly directional, which means it'd be complete BS if you were advancing and stumbled upon enemies automagically in cover relative to your position.

You can't change this without scrapping the whole cover system and flanking bonuses. As I mentioned earlier, then the incentive for maneuvering would be lost and we'd go back to turkey shooting.
The best cover system I saw in a tactical game so far was... in Silent Storm. And oldCom is far closer to it than newCOM. Have you noticed that if you crouch behind a rock wall in oldCom, you can't fire? Same with a window? You can be fired on, yes, if the enemy knows you're there, but any attack will first have to get through your cover - which is exactly what should happen. Did you ever notice that in certain situations, like shooting diagonally across a corner, whoever stands on the right side of the corner will always hit the corner when firing, because his weapon is in his right hand? Like Silent Storm, albeit in a much more primitive fashion, oldCom actually tracked where the shot originates and how it flies through the environment, creating emergent, if clunky, cover. In XCOM, cover is ridiculous. It does not matter what you're hiding behind so long as the bonus is there. And only in rare cases, instead of normally like you'd expect, do your enemies actually aim such that they hit your cover if they miss, especially with weapons that can put two-foot-wide holes through concrete walls.

XCOM is very deterministic, numerical, sacrificing immersion and common sense in favor of clear-cut rules and visible gameplay elements. It's a good game, but it's a bad X-Com.
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anexiledone

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4096 on: February 06, 2016, 01:29:16 pm »

Everyone complaining about getting killed after setting up an ambush. You don't have to start an ambush with a gunshot. Flashbangs work a hell of a lot better ;)
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Krevsin

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4097 on: February 06, 2016, 01:34:26 pm »

That makes zero sense. Why on earth would any reasonable person just stand idly and shoot into a rock, a wall or a closed window instead of leaning slightly to either side of it and firing or breaking/opening the window and firing?

Yes, I prefer the cover system in Silent Storm to the streamlined, simplistic one in nuCom but I quite like the fact that your troops will actually act like rational human beings and lean out of cover to fire or lean around the corners to check for enemies.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4098 on: February 06, 2016, 01:36:36 pm »

It's a good game, but it's a bad X-Com.

Can we not go through this damn argument again?

Every possible statement on this has already been made, rehashed, recycled, and restated.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4099 on: February 06, 2016, 01:46:08 pm »

It's a good game, but it's a bad X-Com.
WE GET IT
Can you at least say something that isn't being said every ten pages since the release of XCOM: EU? Repeating it endlessly isn't changing anyone's mind. 
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Aklyon

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4100 on: February 06, 2016, 01:48:05 pm »

Everyone complaining about getting killed after setting up an ambush. You don't have to start an ambush with a gunshot. Flashbangs work a hell of a lot better ;)
Rockets are also a good starter.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4101 on: February 06, 2016, 01:49:27 pm »

Rockets are an amazing starter. I always use them whenever it's a particularly nasty squad.
Fucking codexes.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

SOLDIER First

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4102 on: February 06, 2016, 01:50:23 pm »

ptw
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Stuebi

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4103 on: February 06, 2016, 02:10:20 pm »

My first campaign just went down the drain. I really underestimated that Doomclock and how important it is to get Zones early.

Anyways, the goods and bads for me:

+- Timers are both Yay and Nay. On one hand it's cool that you can't dilly dally all day long on mist missions. On ther other hand, quite a few timers are just waaaaaaay too short. As the game progresses and enemies start getting health pools beyond a lucky shot and a grenade, having 6 turns to destroy a Comm Relay is just ridicolous. I usually cheese it by bringing like 3 Grenadiers and then rocket it to death, but even then you have to compeltely throw caution out the window and advance like a maniac. Pressure is fine, but the game is overdoing it in quite a few places.

+ I like the ambush mechanic. And honestly, I never had the problem of an ambush blowing up in my face. Open up with an Explosive to shredd that armor and make sure that one move (So, around 5-8 tiles) will not bring them around in your flank. My record is taking down 3 Mutons, 2 Troopers, an Officer and a sectoid in the same turn. Granted three of those were the Sniper with Killzone, which takes a little luck. But it works.

+The customization is amazing. Both visually and mechanically. I really like the addition of modules and the variety of little props you can use. It's fairly easy now to make a character instantly recognizable just by looks, not just by name or giving everyone a different neon color. I have yet to find an utility Item that isnt amazing in some way.

+ The Campaign feels very nice as well. The whole "resistance" thing comes over nicely, and it feels much more proactive than the first X-Com.

+ Classes are fantastic. I remember straight out NEVER taking some of the talents in the first game. This time around, there arent any that feel flat out worse than their alternative. It's also cool how the two trees actually change the way you play a certain dude completely.


- The game interrupts me CONSTANTLY. I can not find proper words to describe how incredibly hard the game wrestles control away from you ALL THE TIME, for NO GOOD REASON. You cant skip the generic chatter that pops up each mission (I want to choke that Central Guy and never hear him again.) and on the Overworld Map. You cant turn the auto-camera on explosions and the like off either. Retaliation missions are a nightmare, not because of "Aliens, nuuuuuu" but because the guy keeps WHINING in my ear about every single Civilian that dies. Listen, I could not care less about those morons, who have the survival instinct of a Lemming on LSD. So shut the f* up about them allready.

-The Doomcounter advances fast, and the game does a fairly poor job in explaining on how to counter it properly. The Tutorial made it seem that you should research and build your forces, do the scans frequently, and then ocassionaly blow up one of those facilities. But a couple hours in the clock was advancing way faster than I could conquer sectors and attack those stupid facilities. Granted, this is a one time mistake on the first campaign, but the Tutorial really doesnt explain those priorities properly.

- Scanning in general can be frustrating as hell. Even if the one your sitting on is just a couple second away from completion, if a priority missions pops up, you either have to get there right away or ignore it. There is no "Can I scan for 5 SECONDS more please to get that scientist?", nope it's do or up yours. The sheer amount of "go there and scan" is a little much for my taste.

- There is the occasional cheap shot the game throws at you. I savescummed my first faceless without a second thought for obvious reasons. Then there are stun lancers, who sho up at a time where it is quite possible you have NO way of properly countering them yet. It annoys me beyond measure that they just knock out one of your guys for the ENTIRE mission, while giving them very far reach and extra HP. Later on they become trivial, but early game the are nothing but frustrating bullsh*t. However, the Codex takes the cake as far as cheap difficulty goes. I'm not gonna spoil it for those who havent reached that point yet, but anyone who fought them allready knows what 'm talking about.
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English isnt my mother language, so feel free to correct me if I make a mistake in my post.

Flying Dice

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4104 on: February 06, 2016, 02:42:06 pm »

- The game interrupts me CONSTANTLY. I can not find proper words to describe how incredibly hard the game wrestles control away from you ALL THE TIME, for NO GOOD REASON. You cant skip the generic chatter that pops up each mission (I want to choke that Central Guy and never hear him again.) and on the Overworld Map. You cant turn the auto-camera on explosions and the like off either. Retaliation missions are a nightmare, not because of "Aliens, nuuuuuu" but because the guy keeps WHINING in my ear about every single Civilian that dies. Listen, I could not care less about those morons, who have the survival instinct of a Lemming on LSD. So shut the f* up about them allready.
This is my single biggest complaint, in tandem with how the game slows down noticeably whenever it happens.

On the plus side they did something good, because it saves instantly instead of taking five minutes.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4105 on: February 06, 2016, 02:45:43 pm »

It's a good game, but it's a bad X-Com.
WE GET IT
Can you at least say something that isn't being said every ten pages since the release of XCOM: EU? Repeating it endlessly isn't changing anyone's mind. 
You clearly haven't tried the new arguing system in Dwarf Fortress, then. :P

Also, I did say something that wasn't said before, you just didn't notice it. X-Com does have a cover system. It's hard to notice it's there if you're not looking for it, because it is not represented in specific numbers and highlighted areas, but you can indeed use cover in X-Com. It even involves mostly doing the exact same thing - crouching behind solid objects. You just can't sidestep from behind a corner, at least without using OpenXCom's extra options - and you are vulnerable when you do, allowing your enemy to shoot you out of turn if they're fast enough, without relying on a special skill that tells you that you can now shoot at enemies before they can shoot at you.
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Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Cthulhu

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4106 on: February 06, 2016, 02:56:18 pm »

When I think of OldCom I think of shooting the wall in front of me.  That's really what set the game apart from the competitors.

Great work dude.

I'm having fun, even if I'm terrible at it.  Still trying to get the hang of the melee guys though, since melee goes against every instinct I have for this kind of game.
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Aklyon

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4107 on: February 06, 2016, 02:59:39 pm »

One rocket, one Kill zone, and assorted overwatch ending up in 5 dead advent and one dead muton centurion in the same ambush. Plus a giant hole in a building. :D
Spoiler: Boom! (click to show/hide)
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Crystalline (SG)
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Yoink

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4108 on: February 06, 2016, 03:03:34 pm »

Spoiler: lol, operation name. (click to show/hide)
Well, it seems the player is usually boned in this game, but that just really spells it out for ya. :P
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Sirus

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4109 on: February 06, 2016, 03:12:41 pm »

So are there rocket launchers that replace the grenade launcher, or do you guys just not know the difference between the two? :P

So I had a pretty frustrating mission called Operation Death Star. In most ways it was a resounding success; I skulljacked my first officer with an expendable rookie (pro tip: skulljacks have the same sort of charge mechanics as swords do, so you can move your maximum range and still use it in a single turn, sometimes around cover), who then inexplicably survived despite the Codex spawning in a flanking position and other enemies showing up. I had an amazing Overwatch turn in which a stun lancer and a sectoid dropped from an overpass and were blown out of the air. I even killed the Codex without any casualties.
So why was it frustrating? Because the original mission objective was to steal some Advent supplies from a transport vehicle, which exploded at the beginning of the turn that I was going to reach said supplies. Despite all the primary objective progress I made, the mission was technically a failure due to that.
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