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Author Topic: X-Com Chimera Squad  (Read 733160 times)

scrdest

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6120 on: January 31, 2017, 07:59:26 pm »

I think True Concealment fixes everything wrong with it pretty handily. Concealment is for the sake of ambushing the enemy, but burning turns on setting up that ambush makes the mission unwinnable. As long as you can creep around without getting fucked, the mechanic becomes what it's meant to be.

As for why Firaxis doesn't seem to understand that, I have no answer.
This seems to extend to Pavonis as well, considering most missions are basically a sprint to the objective because of the timer.

Oddly enough there is a mod that mission timers won't go down for as long as you maintain concealment.
This is literally the mod MSH mentions in the inner quote of your post.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6121 on: January 31, 2017, 08:01:48 pm »

The thing is, Rolan, that while an "XCOM2 but stealth" could be interesting, the game would have to be made with stealth in mind.
Concealment in XCOM 2 is just not meant to be leaned on. As in, sure, it may work as a gimmick feature, but the actual way it's implemented in the game isn't well-done enough to have the rest of the gameplay relying on it.

Concealment in the base game works for what it intends to do: Ambushing the first pod. But it doesn't work when a mod tries to make it so the player uses it to sneak past the pods towards the objective and more. It just isn't created to do that. If the game and the concealment mechanic were designed from the get-go to facilitate more stealth-based gameplay, it could conceivably work, but as it stands Long War 2 feels like it's trying to build way too much on shoddy foundations.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6122 on: January 31, 2017, 08:06:14 pm »

I think True Concealment fixes everything wrong with it pretty handily. Concealment is for the sake of ambushing the enemy, but burning turns on setting up that ambush makes the mission unwinnable. As long as you can creep around without getting fucked, the mechanic becomes what it's meant to be.

As for why Firaxis doesn't seem to understand that, I have no answer.
This seems to extend to Pavonis as well, considering most missions are basically a sprint to the objective because of the timer.

Oddly enough there is a mod that mission timers won't go down for as long as you maintain concealment.
This is literally the mod MSH mentions in the inner quote of your post.

Yes but knowing that would require me to know the mods by heart :P and immediately know that "True Concealment" is the name of that mod. Especially since the sentence still works without that knowledge.
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Rolan7

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6123 on: January 31, 2017, 08:07:03 pm »

If you want a real turn-based stealth game in the vein of newcom, maybe you should look at Invisible, Inc.
You're so right, I considered mentioning Invisible Inc.  It's not XCOM (obviously) and it's also a roguelike by design, even more harsh about failure than NewCOM 2...  But for tile-based stealth, it's pretty amazing.
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Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6124 on: January 31, 2017, 08:11:51 pm »

If you want a real turn-based stealth game in the vein of newcom, maybe you should look at Invisible, Inc.
You're so right, I considered mentioning Invisible Inc.  It's not XCOM (obviously) and it's also a roguelike by design, even more harsh about failure than NewCOM 2...  But for tile-based stealth, it's pretty amazing.

It also happens to be the most true Shadowrun game to be released in recent years... and it isn't even a shadowrun game.
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Egan_BW

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6125 on: January 31, 2017, 09:50:29 pm »

No dragons, ∴ not shadowrun. Sorry, try again. :P
No really, shadowrun means something more specific than generic cyberpunk.
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Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6126 on: January 31, 2017, 10:53:39 pm »

No dragons, ∴ not shadowrun. Sorry, try again. :P
No really, shadowrun means something more specific than generic cyberpunk.

You are totally right!

Invisible Inc actually manages to grab hold of the core feeling of the system. Planning your missions out, getting hackers to alter the systems, running when things go belly up.

But you know what IS ultra-generic cyberpunk? The actual shadowrun videogames... (Well ok... the recent ones)

Which are fine... but you know what game is more Shadowrun then they are? Invisible Inc!

Also Dragons aren't really something you should hold onto for Shadowrun. They are fairly rare and typically so far at the top you won't experience any. It would be like saying "No Tarresque? Not dungeons and dragons". Heck the Dragon Avatars didn't even make it into the next edition.

---

Mind you stuff like this occurring isn't anything unusual. and WOW I am getting things off topic.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:30:21 pm by Neonivek »
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6127 on: February 01, 2017, 07:55:14 pm »

I love Invisible Inc.  I'm so glad you guys mentioned it.

Its one of those games where I've played so much of it there's not much point to going back.  I wish it would get a sequel, or a clone from another company.  Feel the same way about FTL...
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RAM

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6128 on: February 01, 2017, 09:28:57 pm »

I think of Invisible Inc.(I.I.) as more of a puzzle game. Puzzle games give you known elements and tools and set you to achieve a desired result. There are few unpredictable elements at any given moment and their numbers can be mitigated. Also, it is surprisingly gentle in most respects. Other than getting ganked in the entry room or suffering from an acute case of stationary-guard-at-the-worst-spot syndrome, most situations can be recovered from if you just keep your cool and wait for the heat to move away, especially if you can tag the guards...

Nucom on the other hand is about playing the odds. "Can I take three steps without triggering three pods that were "hiding" on the far side of a glass window on that building." "If I hunker down behind this full-cover heavy metal plating will my irreplaceable top-ranked agent with top-ranked gear have their cover explode and then get one-hit-squelched by a crit?". Also I.I. has this nice rewind thing so that if you are being a total casual you can play around with weird what-if scenarios where you go full yahoo and then just rewind the damage and go through on sane mode. Nucom makes everything srs bsns...

And I.I. doesn't have trolls, magic, essence, research... It is nice mission-based cyberpunk, but I really wouldn't call it Shadowrun.
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Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6129 on: February 01, 2017, 10:22:55 pm »

I like that the defense against my statements are always to draw upon individual elements that don't always appear in a shadowrun game, story, or scenario.

Rather then... say... how the games are played, the stories are constructed, or anything like that.

Or rather Shadowrun without the superficial elements is still recognizable as shadowrun. It has a distinct style that shines through regardless. You don't need trolls and magic to make a shadowrun story.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:24:49 pm by Neonivek »
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SOLDIER First

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6130 on: February 01, 2017, 10:24:10 pm »

damn its just a game it doesnt matter literally nothing matters
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6131 on: February 01, 2017, 10:34:12 pm »

I think of Invisible Inc.(I.I.) as more of a puzzle game. Puzzle games give you known elements and tools and set you to achieve a desired result. There are few unpredictable elements at any given moment and their numbers can be mitigated. Also, it is surprisingly gentle in most respects. Other than getting ganked in the entry room or suffering from an acute case of stationary-guard-at-the-worst-spot syndrome, most situations can be recovered from if you just keep your cool and wait for the heat to move away, especially if you can tag the guards...

Nucom on the other hand is about playing the odds. "Can I take three steps without triggering three pods that were "hiding" on the far side of a glass window on that building." "If I hunker down behind this full-cover heavy metal plating will my irreplaceable top-ranked agent with top-ranked gear have their cover explode and then get one-hit-squelched by a crit?". Also I.I. has this nice rewind thing so that if you are being a total casual you can play around with weird what-if scenarios where you go full yahoo and then just rewind the damage and go through on sane mode. Nucom makes everything srs bsns...

And I.I. doesn't have trolls, magic, essence, research... It is nice mission-based cyberpunk, but I really wouldn't call it Shadowrun.
I feel that Invisible Inc just needed a little push to make things less predictable.  I get that for a turn based stealth game you need to know in advance if the enemy will catch you during their turn, god knowns Xcom 2 could have taken notes about that.  The issue is that once you've scouted the level its way too easy to be in complete control of the situation.  Just one extra unknown element, or one new random game mechanic, could have made everything way more replayable.

Granted I've played through the whole thing several times, but it could have been even more replayable than that.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6132 on: February 01, 2017, 10:41:47 pm »

Also Blood Net while a VERY flawed game... is also soo Shadowrun I was surprised to hear it wasn't.

But Xcom 2 also has a Shadowrun mod in the works. It shall be very interesting while done... I think it is dragon something? They were told to stop so they changed the name.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6133 on: February 01, 2017, 10:48:26 pm »

I do believe it's called Dragonpunk or something like that. They put up a picture somewhere before the release of XCOM 2 detailing their plans, and it seemed overly ambitious at the time.
Though surprisingly they were the ones who made the tactical co-op mode which was the first "step" in their said plans.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: X-Com 2: Ita Longissimum Bellum Coepit
« Reply #6134 on: February 01, 2017, 11:34:24 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!
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