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Author Topic: X-Com Chimera Squad  (Read 733551 times)

Urist Imiknorris

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4155 on: February 06, 2016, 07:58:59 pm »

Speaking of...
Finally finish the Proving Ground
"Skulljack will take 14 days.  Hey!  You have an engineer available who will increase the speed by 50%, would you like to assign him?"
Tough call, but okay
"Skulljack will now take 7 days"
> +50%
> Proving ground interface reiterates "PROJECT SPEED +50%"
that math
Project speed math is backwards town. "Speed increase" means "negative of time saved" instead of reciprocal.
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Karlito

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4156 on: February 06, 2016, 08:00:06 pm »

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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4157 on: February 06, 2016, 08:00:30 pm »

Chrysalids are the speed of like, two stun lancers put together.
...Also vulnerable to sniper shots since they rush out of cover to hit you.
Yeah, as I recall on Commander a sniper shot from Plasma lance will 1 shot them from overwatch. So you send a rookie or phantom ranger/armored dude to scout and a team of 2-3 snipers spamming Overwatch/killzone makes the groups of them die as soon as they appear.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4158 on: February 06, 2016, 08:03:18 pm »

Oh my god. I love pistol sharpshooters.

I just had my main pistol guy kill 2 codexes and a viper by attacking 4 times total. Lightning hands, pistol shot, then faceoff.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Sensei

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4159 on: February 06, 2016, 08:09:23 pm »

So, who wants to get a Bay 12 character pool going?
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Flying Dice

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4160 on: February 06, 2016, 08:11:31 pm »

I'll throw in mine as they hit colonel.

Keep in mind that power armor color schemes don't often look good on kevlar. :x
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4161 on: February 06, 2016, 08:46:30 pm »

Aand I just got what may be the worst dark event ever.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

PanH

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4162 on: February 06, 2016, 09:06:43 pm »

So started a serious campaign on Veteran (did 2-3 failed start), and I'm up to Gauss atm, just did the BlackSite mission. I like the game a lot, the new additions are great. The only trouble I have is that there's still some clunkyness in how you manage moves and grenades, sometimes it doesn't go where you wanted it to, I wish they had fixed that from the 1. Also, missions can spawn too quickly, sometimes I have to go back 3-4 times to a rumor to finish it even though it only lasts 3 days (worst I had was 5 missions during a supply drop, 1 council, 1 terror, 1 raid, 1 dark event guerrilla and some other i'm forgetting)

And I always choose the mission that removes the faceless dark event. I nearly shat my pants when I first met one, I'm not ready to see one at every mission.

Also, putting everyone in overwatch for an ambush is a terrible idea unless you're 100% certain to have enough luck and firepower to kill every aliens there is. It doesn't even bring that much of an advantage.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 09:08:25 pm by PanH »
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4163 on: February 06, 2016, 09:10:55 pm »

I just had four people captured because we were one turn away from a forced evac :/  Four of my best people.

Really hope its easy to free them...
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Rolan7

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4164 on: February 06, 2016, 09:14:17 pm »

I hope so too.

@PanH
B-but the teaser video made it look so good!
They don't get cover (though yeah, there's a corresponding aim penalty for overwatch...  I assume it's still a little better?  I hope)

And now, copied from my skype chat:

Spoiler: Base Defense spoilers (click to show/hide)
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RAM

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4165 on: February 06, 2016, 09:16:57 pm »

That makes zero sense. Why on earth would any reasonable person just stand idly and shoot into a rock, a wall or a closed window instead of leaning slightly to either side of it and firing or breaking/opening the window and firing?

Yes, I prefer the cover system in Silent Storm to the streamlined, simplistic one in nuCom but I quite like the fact that your troops will actually act like rational human beings and lean out of cover to fire or lean around the corners to check for enemies.
I much prefer the organic systems in, well, pretty much every game that attempts to model trajectories. Shooting a wall in front of you is just the soldiers doing as they are told, you can't get rid of that without implementing player-faction automation. If you cannot shoot the wall in front of you with a rocket then you cannot shoot the wall in front of you with a shotgun or power-sword to make a neat hole to walk through. Most cover systems are very unrealistic and fundamentally compromise the gameplay. You end up surviving ludicrous situations because you run around from cover to cover, while sensible tactics such as lying down in the open if no cover is near at hand, or offering suppressive counter-fire promptly rather than all carefully getting behind carefully prepared(but usually flimsy, a car door won't stop much of anything and is nicely just the right size that everyone can tell exactly where you are...) while the opposition politely waits for you to do so... Really, the fundamental problem with "cover systems" is that they take over the game and are not sensible enough to allow immersion. I mean, they are great in puzzle games, Invisible Inc. is a great example of this, it is a puzzle game and the Ycom cover system is absolutely wonderful there, but in a game that is not a puzzle-game, it is a puzzle-game element in the middle of a game that it just doesn't fit into.

X-com would have benefited from a half-step feature that could half expose an agent and let them shoot around a corner, it would have been handy, but it is much better to have to deal with obstacles that are obviously obstacles, and to have the freedom to expose agents to shoot as they would actually need to do, then to have the opposite which is a dodgy cover system that lets someone largely ignore you if you happen to be one step short of ninety degrees, but if you reach the magic number, then suddenly you get automatic critical shots... And that is the most annoying thing to me, I have no idea why, but somehow this just catches in my craw, When you are behind cover, it is pretty much just vitals that are exposed, the critical chance is the one thing that cover shouldn't reduce, if anything, cover should make almost all hits be critical ones, either you lose a hand or a head, either way you are likely to be looking at a career change...

But basically, it is just extremely gamey, which tends to throw off the smooth flow and immersion of the game, because you need to stop and make sure that you conform to very specific and arbitrary rules.

Once again, if they didn't have a free move they'd just get utterly massacred.
You ever think thats because the devs are doing something wrong? I mean, if you're just gonna have the enemies spawn when you see them, then why not just have them spawn in cover? Boom, no more need for a free movement turn.

As per the ambush thing, isn't that kind of the point? You only get one ambush, shouldn't it be more powerful than killing ONE enemy? I mean, they pit you against 15-20 guys on a mission, killing one of them is actually less effective than most normal turns.
I said at least one guy. If there wasn't any 'dive to cover' thing then it would be like that every time you encountered an enemy patrol.

And I prefer this system to 'spawn in cover' because 1) The difference isn't existent, really. The difference is literally 'do you see them dive to cover?' and 2) I'm pretty sure people don't sit there permanently in cover in real life, so it'd seem a bit silly.
People do sit in cover permanently, in things like guard posts and such. Also, that is basically the whole point of the stealth-system. Once the team is out of stealth, the enemy know that they are in the area and take cover and such. The problem is that it normalises the encounters. Once the enemy are alerted, they should be moving from cover to cover, but they should only know vaguely where the opposition is, so it should be possible to catch them out of cover if you pull off a good flanking manoeuvre before making contact. Instead they absolutely always just happened to be taking cover from exactly the direction that you came from. Unless you were in overwatch before triggering the pod, in that case they knew that they were in a battlefield but were just merrily strolling down the middle of the street because they just don't care.

The game already has everything that it needs to have them travel in cover, they already move from cover to cover, it is just a matter of having them do so on the assumption that they are taking cover from the direction in which a recent stealth-breaking event occurred. I can see why they did it the way that they did, and I agree that it is not a terrible system, but it is well short of being a good system...
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4166 on: February 06, 2016, 09:19:43 pm »

I hope so too.

@PanH
B-but the teaser video made it look so good!
They don't get cover (though yeah, there's a corresponding aim penalty for overwatch...  I assume it's still a little better?  I hope)

And now, copied from my skype chat:

Spoiler: Base Defense spoilers (click to show/hide)
If you "only" lost 5, that means the rest were captured, likely due to unconsciousness.  Or you/the game miscounted, one of those two things.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

Cthulhu

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4167 on: February 06, 2016, 09:27:40 pm »

I went down to Veteran.  The language they use and stuff like enemy HP makes me think Veteran is the equivalent of classic.  Classic had 3hp sectoids you could kill with one grenade, Veteran has 3hp advent troopers.

I've got a crack team of technicolor lesbians, with a dangerously cool, ice cold Korean dude coming in to support them after one got wounded.

Also got a ridiculously lucky scan objective on like my second day, with tracer ammo and acid grenades.
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Rolan7

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4168 on: February 06, 2016, 09:30:26 pm »

Veteran's the second diff I assume?  I didn't look at the names, just assumed that 2/4 was "normal" (and the description said it was for veterans of XCOM).
@EnigmaticHat
I've been *watching* for any sort of "bleeding out" notification, and haven't seen it.  There certainly hasn't been any BEEP BEEP BEEP accompanied by STABALIZE THIS GUY.
Maybe I've been missing unconscious people, because so far *everyone* has died as far as I can tell.
If they've been subtly falling unconscious, and the UI is just really quiet about it... wow, I might actually be mad at the game instead of just somewhat frustrated.

Once again, if they didn't have a free move they'd just get utterly massacred.
You ever think thats because the devs are doing something wrong? I mean, if you're just gonna have the enemies spawn when you see them, then why not just have them spawn in cover? Boom, no more need for a free movement turn.

As per the ambush thing, isn't that kind of the point? You only get one ambush, shouldn't it be more powerful than killing ONE enemy? I mean, they pit you against 15-20 guys on a mission, killing one of them is actually less effective than most normal turns.
I said at least one guy. If there wasn't any 'dive to cover' thing then it would be like that every time you encountered an enemy patrol.

And I prefer this system to 'spawn in cover' because 1) The difference isn't existent, really. The difference is literally 'do you see them dive to cover?' and 2) I'm pretty sure people don't sit there permanently in cover in real life, so it'd seem a bit silly.

Cover is also strictly directional, which means it'd be complete BS if you were advancing and stumbled upon enemies automagically in cover relative to your position.

You can't change this without scrapping the whole cover system and flanking bonuses. As I mentioned earlier, then the incentive for maneuvering would be lost and we'd go back to turkey shooting.
The best cover system I saw in a tactical game so far was... in Silent Storm. And oldCom is far closer to it than newCOM. Have you noticed that if you crouch behind a rock wall in oldCom, you can't fire? Same with a window? You can be fired on, yes, if the enemy knows you're there, but any attack will first have to get through your cover - which is exactly what should happen. Did you ever notice that in certain situations, like shooting diagonally across a corner, whoever stands on the right side of the corner will always hit the corner when firing, because his weapon is in his right hand? Like Silent Storm, albeit in a much more primitive fashion, oldCom actually tracked where the shot originates and how it flies through the environment, creating emergent, if clunky, cover. In XCOM, cover is ridiculous. It does not matter what you're hiding behind so long as the bonus is there. And only in rare cases, instead of normally like you'd expect, do your enemies actually aim such that they hit your cover if they miss, especially with weapons that can put two-foot-wide holes through concrete walls.

XCOM is very deterministic, numerical, sacrificing immersion and common sense in favor of clear-cut rules and visible gameplay elements. It's a good game, but it's a bad X-Com.
Yeah no that system was bullshit, as RAM points out.  It simply drew a line from a certain spot near their center AFAIK...  IE they weren't willing to move *whatsoever* to get a shot, but they were very often vulnerable to enemies who could see their exposed heads/sides.  It was unintuitive, frustrating, and the UI didn't assist *at all*, in fact if you issued a fire order it happily wasted the TU to turn and face and THEN told you "oops you can't 'SEE' them from there" (Or to be fair, no "line of sight").  Then that same alien has a free opportunity to shoot your soldier on its turn.
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

EnigmaticHat

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Re: X-Com 2: Welcome Back, Commander.
« Reply #4169 on: February 06, 2016, 09:32:30 pm »

No, stun lancers can knock people out.

Bleed out has a very obvious cross next to their name but its happened ONCE to me and that was after the mission was hopeless.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule
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