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[Kagus]

Both respect and loyalty can be gained through non-"good" means though, and Machiavelli makes the point that while love grants a stronger respect, fear is easier to use and control. Loyalty is basically just "I'll pay you more than they're paying you".

You'd have to make an argument as to why you're specifically going the honorable route (especially when no one is looking) in order for that to really sit well.

[pikachu17]

The one who only wants respect never goes the honorable route when he is sure it won't lower his gain of respect and loyalty.

Loyalty is more than just "I'll pay you more than they're paying you".

I didn't say with either of them that they are going the honorable route.
While fear is decent for gaining respect, it is absolutely terrible for gaining genuine loyalty, no matter how much fear that is, as if they think they can get away with betraying you, they will.

The second one is not honorable, he simply has an alternative morality system centered around giving and receiving respect and loyalty. This does not directly translate to honorable, though it may appear similar to it.

[Cthulhu]

Alignment should be law/neutral/chaos and reflect only the color of your piece in the grand multiversal chess game the gods of law and chaos are playing

[Mephisto]

How often does your game touch on anything close to that, anyway? Either very rarely and that's wasted space on the character sheet, or almost exclusively and you're missing out on all of the other stories you could be creating.

[Cthulhu]

Every story is missing out on every other story so I dunno what you're trying to say with that.

Alignment is already a waste of space on the sheet, outside corner cases of alignment specific spells and stuff (which could easily be adjudicated) it just gets in the way, see the entire conversation above

[Egan_BW]

If gods play chess, then their game certainly does not have only two colors of piece.

[Cruxador]

I'm of the opinion that alignment should always depend on setting. Good and evil can be a big deal in a Faerūn type land, and order and chaos are very Egyptian, but if we look at world myth in general, the good vs evil paradigm is very much a west Asian (and, by extension, Abrahamic), and law/chaos is sort of a combination of that with a civilization vs wilderness theme that's more common in African traditional religion, although it notably also sort of cropped up independently among some late 18th century protestants. And this is before getting into Eastern works, which besides yin and yang often portray people and beings with an elemental affinity that runs a lot deeper than just having a couple specific "elemental" critters. And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples that I can't reference off-hand.

That's a whole lot of thematic ground that you lose if you just go with Moorcock plus what (if not dealt with directly) often boils down to "self-righteous vs edgy".

[scriver]

If gods play chess, then their game certainly does not have only two colors of piece.

Yes, that's why the alignment has five

I'm of the opinion that alignment should always depend on setting. Good and evil can be a big deal in a Faerūn type land, and order and chaos are very Egyptian, but if we look at world myth in general, the good vs evil paradigm is very much a west Asian (and, by extension, Abrahamic), and law/chaos is sort of a combination of that with a civilization vs wilderness theme that's more common in African traditional religion, although it notably also sort of cropped up independently among some late 18th century protestants. And this is before getting into Eastern works, which besides yin and yang often portray people and beings with an elemental affinity that runs a lot deeper than just having a couple specific "elemental" critters. And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples that I can't reference off-hand.

Norse alignments: Mead, Ale, or Wine

[Cthulhu]

How often does your game touch on anything close to that, anyway? Either very rarely and that's wasted space on the character sheet, or almost exclusively and you're missing out on all of the other stories you could be creating.

Depends, honestly.  In an ideal old school game alignment means almost nothing (i vacillate between it reflecting behavior and it being purely a metaphysical tag, and a righteous paladin could be chaotic, his actions furthering the goals of chaos on a timescale no mortal can comprehend ).  But, as you get high level,  you start factoring more directly in the divine conflict and inevitably they get you involved.

But i don't like alignment in general, i think its often restrictive, and very few good characters fall into one category or another.

Anyway, I'm actually starting a game this week.  Online, but with people I know so not the usual online experience.  Going with a homebrew setting, a flat world with the sun in the south and no moon.  No tides, no real seasons (the southern continents are always hot and it gets colder and darker the further north you go, with obligatory Evil Zone in the farthest north where sunlight never reaches)

Don't have any guidance for players at the moment, setting it up as a kind of pseudo uexcrawl.  There's a successi9n war on the northern continent and the lack of manpower means monsters and bandits in civilized lands, and private mercenary bands are becoming profitable.  Gonna start in medias res with a monster hunt that'll lead them to the starting semimegadungeon and give them some side hooks to keep exploring it.  Having fun with the dungeon.

Main 'plot' aside from the war is that the continent to the south is ruled by a cabal of sorcerers from another world, akin to the masters in eador.  They know how to take control of shards and are working to annex the players' world.  Have a few hooks for getting involved there floating around

[pikachu17]

Why, exactly, would the dividing line be Law/Chaos, when most of Dnd has a more evil/good divide?
Why exactly would a nice person work with a nasty rapist just because the rapist is Lawfully-aligned?
Alignment is not meant to be a restriction anyway, at least in 5e, merely a shorthand how they act.

[Cthulhu]

Old school dnd used law/chaos with no good/evil axis because it was more in keeping with the fantasy heritage of the game.  Tolkein sure, but especially moorcock, howard, lovecraft, etc. which werent based on good vs evil but more amoral, with a cosmic war between law and chaos that both ultimately inimical to normal people (the corum books conclude with the destruction of both teams for example)

Good and evil didnt appear until 2e, i believe

Its not supposed to be restrictive and yet I often see people putting the cart before the horse, using alignment to define behavior rather than the other way around

[NullForceOmega]

Alignment discussion is a no-no, there is a thread to contain that discussion linked in the OP.

Please use it instead of this thread.

[Cruxador]

It doesn't seem like quite as incendiary a topic as it used to be, but fair enough.

Why, exactly, would the dividing line be Law/Chaos, when most of Dnd has a more evil/good divide?
Why exactly would a nice person work with a nasty rapist just because the rapist is Lawfully-aligned?
Alignment is not meant to be a restriction anyway, at least in 5e, merely a shorthand how they act.

I've responded at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg7969603#msg7969603

[Cthulhu]

New topic.  I like to keep my monsters mysterious, especially common enemies.  So I've reflavored monstrous humanoids and some monstrosities as fomorians, autochthonic creatures born from rocks and mud in areas the Sunken God's corruption is strong.  They start off small (goblins) but get bigger and more monstrous as they age with no upper limit.  The tarrasque is an ancient fomorian for example.  When they die they turn back into dirt, and I'm thinking each one has a rocky heart with a bit of the Sunken God's blood.  The heart can be prepared with an arcana check to use for a small one-use magic effect, just to add some flavor.  I need to think of good effects though.  I'm thinking ogre hearts will let you boost a level 1 spell to level 2 with a level 1 spell slot, trolls probably a regen effect, but goblins have me stumped, since they're so common.  Maybe a goodberry effect?  Drink the drop of blood inside and you don't have to eat all day?  Want to keep it  minimal, they're not really magic items.

Also considering long term effects of tapping into an ancient evil's power like this.

[Cruxador]

Sounds like that would be a good source of healing potions for your setting. Have your players guzzling goblin blood. That also makes healing potions common enough that you can houserule natural hp recovery to be more realistic without it being punitive. As for side effects... Just have your players roll a d20 every time they do this, and increment a number behind your screen if the roll is low. That should be enough to have an effect on the players. As for what it does, maybe just a penalty on interactions with that ancient evil.