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[Rolan7]

"firing the arrows backwards"

Jesus, the handwaving at your table is something. This wouldn't pass muster even in manga.

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll
it's fantasy

Yeah I was just about to add that with craft (fletcher) I was allowed to make nonlethal (blunt) and slashing-type arrows alongside piercing damage.

Yeah if I had been playing an actual ranger or something, I would have custom nonlethal arrows handy.

[Culise]

Yeah I was just about to add that with craft (fletcher) I was allowed to make nonlethal (blunt) and slashing-type arrows alongside piercing damage.

Yeah if I had been playing an actual ranger or something, I would have custom nonlethal arrows handy.

Preferably with a (highly-anachronistic) boxing glove on the front, because sometimes you just need to punch someone from across the room.

[Rolan7]

Rangeru PUUUUNCH

[Culise]

Rangeru PUUUUNCH

...I'm suddenly entirely too curious if one can build a Mazinger Warforged, because reasons.

[Cruxador]

"firing the arrows backwards"

Jesus, the handwaving at your table is something. This wouldn't pass muster even in manga.

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll
it's fantasy

I mean, at least those things are theoretically possible.

[Egan_BW]

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll
it's fantasy

Could just as reasonably be the archer holding two arrows in the hand and firing them rapidly, one after the other.  I'm led to believe that can be done in 6 seconds, and is realistic provided you're willing to sacrifice a little power and accuracy.

If it doesn't involve a minus to your attack roll, I guess that's where the fantasy comes into the picture.

[Rolan7]

Oh, a level 11 ranger is expected to fire 4 times a round (3 from BAB, plus one from Rapid Shot).  That sounds like what you're describing, holding several arrows and firing them in very rapid sequence.  But they all get different attack rolls.  A Manyshot attack sends two (or more, it actually scales) arrows at exactly the same place, whether that's a miss or hit...

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll
it's fantasy

I mean, at least those things are theoretically possible.

No, you're drawing (heh) an arbitrary line.  Firing two arrows such that they fly together is just as absurd as knocking the arrowhead against the bowstring.  They're both "theoretically possible", but completely unrealistic.

One of my examples is a 10ft tall ogre abusing reach mechanics and combat reflexes, I guess that wasn't clear.

[Cruxador]

Oh, a level 11 ranger is expected to fire 4 times a round (3 from BAB, plus one from Rapid Shot).  That sounds like what you're describing, holding several arrows and firing them in very rapid sequence.  But they all get different attack rolls.  A Manyshot attack sends two (or more, it actually scales) arrows at exactly the same place, whether that's a miss or hit...

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll
it's fantasy

I mean, at least those things are theoretically possible.

No, you're drawing (heh) an arbitrary line.  Firing two arrows such that they fly together is just as absurd as knocking the arrowhead against the bowstring.  They're both "theoretically possible", but completely unrealistic.

One of my examples is a 10ft tall ogre abusing reach mechanics and combat reflexes, I guess that wasn't clear.

Hitting something (as an attack of opportunity or otherwise) once or more per second doesn't strain credibility that much. Shooting one target with two arrows from the same loose of the string is hardly a likely course of events, but it still has the possibility of occurring. If you tried to nock an arrow by its head, you'd just cut the drawstring. Even if you used a modern dull target shooting arrow (at which point, why not shoot it the right way around?) fletching exists for a reason. It's a line, but it's not that arbitrary, and even if it was there's a vast gulf there that could fit countless many lines.

[Trekkin]

No, you're drawing (heh) an arbitrary line.  Firing two arrows such that they fly together is just as absurd as knocking the arrowhead against the bowstring.  They're both "theoretically possible", but completely unrealistic.

There is historical precedent for it, actually, although the pictures could just be of archers drawing one arrow while holding others parallel in their arrow hand for rapid fire. (Bearing in mind that war archery used arrow hand draw, this makes a certain amount of sense.) More to the point, though, you can find YouTube videos of people doing this over D&D-esque ranges and the arrows do fly together, at least well enough that you could conceivably expect to hit a Medium target with more than one of them regularly.

Penetrating is another matter entirely, particularly since bows are optimized for specific arrow weights so double stringing more than halves the momentum per arrow, but it does make sense if firing at very long range into a crowd so the arrows have time to diverge.

[Egan_BW]

I suppose it would make sense to fire two arrows at the same target each with half the energy if you're fighting something that's more damaged by the multiple hits than by the deeper penetration. Like a slime, maybe? An amorphous target would probably care more about getting cut by two low energy broadhead arrows than getting pierced by one high energy bodkin arrow.

[scriver]

I think the most important point is, though, that shooting the arrow backwards just sounds so godawfully dumb.

I'd just let an archer shoot to nail the target to objects with his arrow (regardless of feats). Hell, I'd be more inclined to just let archer shoot with the arrow the right way around and say that it just hits "non-lethal" area than say he turns the arrow.

Especially if you throw out stupid "non-lethal" damage and just implement HP as one's ability to still fight rather than an exact measurement if one's health, as suggested above. Shoot your enemy to 0 HP? You didn't pierce his skull, you just put an arrow straight through his knee and ended the fight.

[wierd]

While you might be able to knock the arrow, and release it from the bow, the fletchings being on the FRONT of the arrow will cause it to tumble.

[Persus13]

The main reason I was asking about ranged nonlethal is because in 5e you can't do knock someone out from range, and I was curious how 3.5 dealt with that.

Especially if you throw out stupid "non-lethal" damage and just implement HP as one's ability to still fight rather than an exact measurement if one's health, as suggested above. Shoot your enemy to 0 HP? You didn't pierce his skull, you just put an arrow straight through his knee and ended the fight.

Putting an arrow through someone's knee is still pretty bad, especially if they've been taking a lot of damage earlier in the fight.

[scriver]

It's been known to end careers.

[Jimmy]

Spoiler: I used to be an adventurer... (click to show/hide)