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[Rolan7]

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born.

Maaaybe?  And maybe any small bit of tinder could replace bat guano for a fireball?

But not in the thick of combat, I'd say.  A DND spell is about memorizing a very specific formula.  If you replaced flour with dried peas in a stew, it'd be a different stew, and in bread it simply wouldn't work right.  Unless you tweaked the formula ahead of time, with research.

Besides, people say "pea soup", not "floury fog".  Spells could be determined by common language/memes, heh.

[NullForceOmega]

Goddamn it Prachett, why can't things ever be easy with you?

[wierd]

You could very well substitute egg lumen, and call it Caustic Custard instead.

The point is that you invest some time before bed conducting an experiment to determine the nature of the requirement, so that you can better understand how it can be substituted, and what the consequences of the substitution would be.

[smjjames]

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born.

Maaaybe?  And maybe any small bit of tinder could replace bat guano for a fireball?

But not in the thick of combat, I'd say.  A DND spell is about memorizing a very specific formula.  If you replaced flour with dried peas in a stew, it'd be a different stew, and in bread it simply wouldn't work right.  Unless you tweaked the formula ahead of time, with research.

Besides, people say "pea soup", not "floury fog".  Spells could be determined by common language/memes, heh.

Needing to memorize a certain formula is certainly a reasonable argument against changing it unless the character did the research and prepared it beforehand. Plus you may not always want to try an untested experiment in a tough battle.

[NullForceOmega]

Some mages would positively leap at the chance to test their pet spell changes in the thick of combat.

[Rolan7]

I am actually disappointed that DND generally doesn't have flashy random spell failures.  You have to look to wild magic, or misusing magic devices.

In our group we partially rectify that with a deck of "critical failure" cards, which include ones for magic attacks.  It only comes up for spells which use an attack roll (which can also crit-succeed, people forget) but it has some really wild options.

My favorite was... IIRC... to roll twice from the Rod of Wonder table.  Our party and the three hobgoblins suddenly lost our equipment as it fell to the floor, ethereal.  Fortunately for our decency, we also all sprouted leaves.  I swear those were the rolls.

[Egan_BW]

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Son.

[wierd]

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born.

Maaaybe?  And maybe any small bit of tinder could replace bat guano for a fireball?

But not in the thick of combat, I'd say.  A DND spell is about memorizing a very specific formula.  If you replaced flour with dried peas in a stew, it'd be a different stew, and in bread it simply wouldn't work right.  Unless you tweaked the formula ahead of time, with research.

Besides, people say "pea soup", not "floury fog".  Spells could be determined by common language/memes, heh.

Needing to memorize a certain formula is certainly a reasonable argument against changing it unless the character did the research and prepared it beforehand. Plus you may not always want to try an untested experiment in a tough battle.

This is an argument revolving around the disparity of rote memorization, and actual knowledge.

A person with rote memorization can regurgitate that division by 0 is undefined.  The mathematician knows why, and what that means.

[smjjames]

Some mages would positively leap at the chance to test their pet spell changes in the thick of combat.

Thus the 'may not always want', depends on the player and specific circumstance.

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Son.

Wut, did I ruin your joke?

[wierd]

If it's a choice between "You cannot cast that, you dont have the materials!"  and "You cast..... Something... vaguely, kinda like what you want, with these odd/unexpected consequences", and you REALLY REALLY need something to slow down the angry monster barreling down the narrow hallway...


I will take the latter, M'kay?

[Rolan7]

Needing to memorize a certain formula is certainly a reasonable argument against changing it unless the character did the research and prepared it beforehand. Plus you may not always want to try an untested experiment in a tough battle.

This is an argument revolving around the disparity of rote memorization, and actual knowledge.

A person with rote memorization can regurgitate that division by 0 is undefined.  The mathematician knows why, and what that means.

In fluff, DND wizards cast (or "prepare") all their spells in the morning...  Except for a final triggering step.  That is why (in 3.5) they're able to apply metamagic so much easier than spontaneous casters:  They've already done all the work, so the final step for a typical spell is literally*NEARLY* as easy as swinging a weapon and shouting.

Edit:  This is why the character sheets list "spells memorized":  That is what they do every morning, memorize and prepare.

[Egan_BW]

This is an argument revolving around the disparity of rote memorization, and actual knowledge.

A person with rote memorization can regurgitate that division by 0 is undefined.  The mathematician knows why, and what that means.

Of course, the "rote memorization" kind of knowledge is generally better for combat. If you're not casting a fireball for demolitions or science reasons, you'll want to be casting it fast, in which case you're better off learning the motions involved than having to think about magical theory every time you want to set someone on fire.

[wierd]

Having a good favorite is always good, but the actual knowledge comes in handy when you *must* improvise, or when you need to try to identify or negate a kind of magic. 

EG, an abjurer might not be able to completely stop a high level spell, but they might know enough to make it become harmless instead.


Rolan:

I am well aware.  I even cited this when I pointed out that this requirement is a natural limiter to egregious experimenting; If you force the experiment to always happen in that time slot, you force the wizard to forego his normal memorization regiment in order to perform the experiment--- etc.

Again, I would personally make it as painless for everyone as possible with a couple simple mechanics:
Borrow heavily from what you need to make a potion-- Materials, mental energy in the form of experience points, a place to work that is controlled, and a time slot to do it in.

Since wizards have to spend the night mentally prepping themselves to have a spell ready in their slot before bed, it automatically means either doing the experiment, or prepping their spell slots.  It also would come at material and experience costs.

I would further require a basic outline of the experiment in written form from the player, with a well stated hypothesis, based exclusively on already established information exclusively from that world.

[scriver]

In all seriousness, if anyone does want to draw up a setting for public consumption, I'd be happy to put a link in the first post for them.

@smjjames: pretty sure you got it the first time, rime is just a term for frost and has been sort of generally applied to wintery things.

Yes, I just combined the words to form a general description of the setting. Sort of like "Space Western". My feeling of the word is that it's specifically frost that forms from condensation around the edges on an object (like the ever expanding snowflake) and is probably directly related to the word "rim" (rime frost then being directly "edge frost"), and like a western it takes place on the edge, or frontier. Yes, I know, I overthink things.

Anyway, scriver, I expect a full workup on that setting on my desk by Monday, get to it. : p

Sir yes sir! I'm mostly imagining lots of grim, grizzled people in heavy winter coats squinting at each others as their wintry breaths hang thick in the air and numbing fingers fumble for their revolvers.

[wierd]

I cant help but imagine grimdark Horton Hears a Who.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horton_Hears_a_Who!

In which our adventure closes, with the snowflake world, filled with hopes, dreams, ambitions--- landing on a pig-nosed and freckle-faced street urchin's tongue on a cold january morning.