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[milo christiansen]

you've just got a bunch of individuals playing make-believe.

I hate to say it, but this is what an RPG is. The rules provide some structure so things don't get too crazy, but at the core an RPG is all about playing "make-believe" in an adult manner.

[Mephisto]

I mean, if you take D&D, strip out everything that you don't like from the book, and call the result D&D, I have no other words to describe it. It's basically an unpubished fantasy heartbreaker at that point.

[NullForceOmega]

No.  What you have is a shared game of make believe.  The rules and setting exist to keep everyone in (as close as possible to) the same story.  So by definition not 'individuals' playing make believe.

@Mephisto:  Who the hell said anything about stripping out everything that makes it D&D?  5th ed isn't all of D&D, neither is 4th, 3.5, 3rd, second or AD&D, and in most of those the kind of abilities you're talking about and the class you named flat out didn't exist.  Not everyone is playing the game the same way.  Hell, they aren't necessarily playing the same GAME.

So if you really have to call it something, how about 'custom', as that doesn't sound like you're trying to belittle people for playing a different way.  And if you can't do that, maybe this thread isn't the place you want to be discussing this subject.

[Mephisto]

@Mephisto:  Who the hell said anything about stripping out everything that makes it D&D?

If you read what I said, you'll see that I'm not the one that said that either.

5th ed isn't all of D&D, neither is 4th, 3.5, 3rd, second or AD&D, and in most of those the kind of abilities you're talking about and the class you named flat out didn't exist.  Not everyone is playing the game the same way.  Hell, they aren't necessarily playing the same GAME.

You still haven't said what you're playing, so I'm going to assume GURPS. Yeah, the magic system in GURPS is way different. Now I understand why my D&D assumption was falling flat.

[wierd]

In nearly all of those, the book gives at least a half-assed explanation already.

Kobolds get pack tactics because they are pack-oriented humanoid monsters.

Spoiler: Straight from the damn monster manual, 3.5e, pg 161, with emphasis (click to show/hide)

COMBAT
Kobolds like to attack with over-whelming odds-- at least two to one-- or trickery; should the odds fall below this threshold, they usually flee. However, they attack gnomes on sight if their numbers are equal.

Halflings are 'lucky', because they are small, quick, and perceptive.

Spoiler: Straight from the damn player's guide 3.5e, pg19, with emphasis (click to show/hide)

Halfing Racial Traits
+2 Dex, -2 Str: Halflings are quick, agile, and good with ranged weapons, but they are small and therefore not as strong as other humanoids.

Small: As a small creature, a halfing gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 of those of a medium character.

+2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks: Halflings are agile, surefooted, and athletic.

+1 racial bonus on all saving throws: Halflings are surprisingly capable of avoiding mishaps. **(Again, because they are agile, sure footed, and athletic, not to mention small, and hard to hit!)

...

Blah blah blah-- you get the damn idea.

Hexblades using Cha is in the same vein as Sorcs and Bards using Cha.  Sorcs and Bards use Cha because  their magic is shaped by their imagination/emotions-- or for bards-- the emotional states their music induces. For a hexblade, the emotional will to cause the effect on strike, manifests as the added effect in the strike, and thus its impact would be tied to the Cha of the character.

Like it or not, explaining "why" is pretty damn vital to being able to interact with a world.

[smjjames]

Snowflake world? How about a world that literally takes place on a plane in the shape of a snowflake....

@NullForceOmega: How about 'homebrew' instead of custom? At least that's the term I usually hear used for DnD type games.

As far as applying fine grain knowledge to the fantasy world, one could do that, but as has been mentioned, you need to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. That said, I didn't get the comment regarding fireballs and guano, the character doesn't have what knowledge about guano? That guano is flammable or fertilizer can be explosive?

[NullForceOmega]

I play lots of shit Mephisto.  I started with original AD&D when I was twelve and have ranged across a great many systems since then.  I usually play 3rd edition or RIFTS, and if you want my opinions on that I've already had two fairly lengthy rants on the subject, one of which isn't even that many pages back on this very thread.

And when the exact words you typed are:

I mean, if you take D&D, strip out everything that you don't like from the book, and call the result D&D, I have no other words to describe it. It's basically an unpubished fantasy heartbreaker at that point.

Then yes, you most certainly did say that.  Even if those aren't the words you used.

@smjjames: homebrew is common usage and completely acceptable here.

As for the guano, it more has to do with determining if there is reasonable cause for the character to infer that the bat guano is in itself flammable or if they simply know that it is the necessary material component of the spell as per wrote knowledge.  I'm not saying that they can't figure that out, but I'm not just going to take it as a given that they can.

[wierd]

guano is not itself explosive. At best, it burns really well.

To produce an explosive from it requires either a fortuitous accident (such as what happened with the invention of flash paper, after a chemist got his linen labcoat soaked by nitric acid, and then hung it to dry near a fireplace-- BANG!), or applied experiment initiated because of such an accident.

(in world, it could be that people cleaning out the guano noticed that materials it had soaked into were more flammable-- followed by alchemical/magical experimentation from a wizard to find out why.)

[smjjames]

@wierd: Maybe it's me, but being quick, agile, surefooted and athletic doesn't equal luck (though that's probably exactly what you're saying), it equals the agility stat or similar. Luck is just a boost to the chance to succeed/fail.

I have played RPG games, just not tabletop DnD, so, it's just my interpretation of the luck stat.

@Mephisto:  Who the hell said anything about stripping out everything that makes it D&D?

If you read what I said, you'll see that I'm not the one that said that either.

5th ed isn't all of D&D, neither is 4th, 3.5, 3rd, second or AD&D, and in most of those the kind of abilities you're talking about and the class you named flat out didn't exist.  Not everyone is playing the game the same way.  Hell, they aren't necessarily playing the same GAME.

You still haven't said what you're playing, so I'm going to assume GURPS. Yeah, the magic system in GURPS is way different. Now I understand why my D&D assumption was falling flat.

Maybe it'd help if you asked which particular situation, like the particular game that he is doing atm that may have started this whole argument, or what he was talking about in the post you're referring to, etc.

@wierd: You'd have to go out of your way to make fertilizer explosive, yeah, just wasn't sure what NullForceOmega meant in that circumstance.

[NullForceOmega]

This particular discussion began with a comment from weird regarding applying a scientific model to magic in general, it wasn't (specifically) aimed at any setting or ruleset.

His comment is in specific response to a D&D spell, but my response was generalized.

[scriver]

Snowflake world? How about a world that literally takes place on a plane in the shape of a snowflake....

How about a Rime Western setting about the edges of such a snowflake world, which are constantly expanding out into the nothingness as more water is frozen, creating a neverending frontier for people to exploit?

[wierd]

"luck" is the perceived anomaly of success over failure an individual appears to have.

If a person is very perceptive, even unconsciously, they can evade a dangerous situation because they perceive the danger. This can be expressed as a bonus on the saving throw, etc-- which is how the book does it. 

Likewise, that same perceptivity will allow them to make connections or to intuit relationships that others do not realize or see. EG-- the halfling might be better at poker, because he can pick out unconscious facial expressions in the other player's poker faces.

"Luck" is the final, apparent product of the features cited-- Halflings get bonuses to a lot of things, because they are small, fast, good with their hands, and very perceptive.

[NullForceOmega]

Snowflake world? How about a world that literally takes place on a plane in the shape of a snowflake....

How about a Rime Western setting about the edges of such a snowflake world, which are constantly expanding out into the nothingness as more water is frozen, creating a neverending frontier for people to exploit?

Sounds like a very cool setting.

[smjjames]

Applying a scientific model to magic could easily be 'technology so advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic'. Of course though, we're not talking about 20th century tech in a medieval setting type fantasty.

Pathfinder probably allows that since it's a post apocalyptic cyberpunky sort of thing. edit: And then theres spelljammer with it's magic fuelled spaceships that are literally sailing ships, I think.

This particular discussion began with a comment from weird regarding applying a scientific model to magic in general, it wasn't (specifically) aimed at any setting or ruleset.

His comment is in specific response to a D&D spell, but my response was generalized.

I guess the argument between you and mephisto was a side tangent? Seemed to have arisen from confusion somewhere I guess.... Anyhoo, moving on....

[NullForceOmega]

I guess so.  Again, I was just giving some advice for DMs/GMs for when they have to deal with situations like that, it's pretty obvious that far more people read this thread than post in it, and I'd like to think that we can offer advice that might be helpful to them in their own games.