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[Mephisto]

The exact wording is something about being moved more than 10 feet from the point where the item was when the spell was cast. I think teleport qualifies, though I love the thought of someone dedicated enough to the craft to spend a 7th level slot to move an item with a 3rd level spell on it.

Then again, I was just talking about blowing 200 gold every time I wanted to pull my neener neener prank. This is going to have to wait until my character accumulates FU money.

[wierd]

...

(Gets super pedantic)

Clearly, frame-dragging is the exception, otherwise the spell would fizzle almost instantly as a result of the planet's motion through space. (Planet is not only in orbit around a star, the star is in orbit around the galaxy-- meaning the planet is moving pretty damned fast, relative to the center of the galaxy. Several million miles per hour.)

Since frame-dragging/space distortion is then guaranteed to be the "out" that enables it to work as the writers intended, it opens all kinds of other options, such as things like open dimension doors-- as those work pretty much like wormholes.

(Good luck getting a DM to accept that answer though.)

[NullForceOmega]

Appropriate DM response to the above pedantry:

"Magic is not physics, it has its own rules, and they are written right there for everyone to see."

That line should very neatly resolve any arguments, if it doesn't, just employ rule zero.

[Trekkin]

Appropriate DM response to the above pedantry:

"Magic is not physics, it has its own rules, and they are written right there for everyone to see."

That line should very neatly resolve any arguments, if it doesn't, just employ rule zero.

They clearly interact, though -- and more importantly, if the players care enough to invent some cockeyed scheme to move an expensive mid-level spell around, that's an excellent opportunity for things to go entertainingly wrong. Shutdown by DM fiat isn't nearly as much fun as letting them have all the rope they could ever need to hang themselves with.

Maybe it's just a quirk of having a gaming group full of scientists who all find this sort of thing fun and engaging to think about, but I've found that some of the most memorable moments in our games have been the result of the creative application of player pedantry; as far as I know they've never noticed the retroading I've had to do to make it work with the story. This also lets me save rule zero for the times when someone's actually uncomfortable or otherwise not having fun.

[smjjames]

And rule zero is... 'there are no rules'?

[Trekkin]

And rule zero is... 'there are no rules'?

Rule Zero is "DM fiat overrides rules."

[Mephisto]

They clearly interact, though -- and more importantly, if the players care enough to invent some cockeyed scheme to move an expensive mid-level spell around, that's an excellent opportunity for things to go entertainingly wrong. Shutdown by DM fiat isn't nearly as much fun as letting them have all the rope they could ever need to hang themselves with.

I love being allowed to hang myself and fellow party members. Presenting: our after-game chat. Note, we can all read and know that, per the description, this wouldn't work.


Ako
If everyone dips five levels in spellcasting classes, we could upgrade Tiny Hut into Tiny Village.

Naex
I’m down for this.

Ako
Make DM bust out the math. Assuming we all cast at the same time, what do intersecting Tiny Huts do?

Naex
Well, now I’m curious to find out. What if it’s just one big Tiny Hut with rooms for everyone?
A magical dorm, of sorts.
A paradox. :astonished:

DM
I know much of tiny huts
If the caster leaves hut is gone, only people who would be witin the hut when it is casted may enter or leave
they can't intersect.... like 95% sure

Naex
...but would you let us?

DM
I would allow you to try
with consequences


Naex is getting Tiny Hut within one or two levels. Then we can find out what these consequences are.

Maybe it's just a quirk of having a gaming group full of scientists who all find this sort of thing fun and engaging to think about, but I've found that some of the most memorable moments in our games have been the result of the creative application of player pedantry

I definitely get some of that. I don't know what Naex's player does for a living but I'm a software developer and love doing pedantic shenanigans. I think we're frequently the two most "disruptive" characters. Who'da guessed that the utility sorcerer and the College of Glamour bard would be disruptive?

[milo christiansen]

The Angry GM: The Website: The Book: The Kickstarter I really love the reward tier descriptions, they are classic Angry

[NullForceOmega]

And rule zero is... 'there are no rules'?

Rule Zero is "DM fiat overrides rules."

Technically rule zero is "The DM is the FINAL ARBITER of the rules."  Though there are a great many ways to phrase it.

I actually generally let players go with weird stuff, but I will not hesitate to say NO when they start pulling advanced physics shit in a medieval universe.  No, just because YOU understand the principles of physics and chemistry does not mean that your highly intelligent mage who uses bat guano to hurl fireballs has sufficient data to infer them (without YEARS of study of those specific principles).  Separation of player and character knowledge is an absolute at my table.

[Egan_BW]

The DM controls all factors *except* for decisions made by your character. Including but not limited to the decisions of npcs, the course of history, random happenstance, the laws of physics, basic mathematics, and yes, the "game rules", whatever that means.

[NullForceOmega]

Anyway, I was really just (poorly) trying to offer a simple solution to those times that players get out of control with their ideas, as DM you've got to decide when enough is enough and have ways to reign things in.

[wierd]

(warning, this sounds and probably is more than a bit douchey, and I apologize in advance.)

The major issue I have with "capriciously applied" rules, (Like "Magic is not science!", when if there is a force in the world, and it can have demonstrably repeatable results from a repeated action that involves it (such as an incantation)--- then quite clearly, magic *IS* a science, resulting in a paradoxical, or nonsensical statement from the DM, etc.) is that the goal of a role playing game, is to ASSUME A ROLE, and the whole point of creating a fantasy world, IS TO INTERACT WITH THAT WORLD. 

When a DM simply does not want to permit experimentation or critical reasoning on the fantasy world, it denies the player a true understanding of what they are actually doing, and denies them the ability to actually play a role.

Example:  A wizard.

A wizard is *NOT* a sorcerer. (A sorcerer's magic is wild, and a product of their imagination/charisma interacting with their magical abilities.)  A wizard learns magic as if it were a science. 'This principle of magical energy interacts with that feature of mundane matter, producing THIS effect'--- etc.  This is necessary for a standard spellbook to even exist.

Wizards learn these interactions, and their 'research', is finding more detailed understandings of those interactions, or finding exceptions to the rules of those interactions, in a disciplined and repeatable fashion.  It would be in a wizard's nature to want to push the limits of their knowledge, or to push the limits of what is (currently) possible with their knowledge of magic and how it interacts with the world they live in.

Since that is kind of essential to the core motivation of a wizard's intellect, insisting that a wizard cannot question, experiment, or attempt rational deduction to create new effects/spells, modify existing spells to have different effects by using slightly different conditionals, etc-- is straight up denying the ability to assume the role of a wizard.

Employing rule-zero because you dont want to try and work out how these experiments end in a more or less coherent way, and breaking that roleplay, is fucking lame.

LAME.

If you ask me, the better way to limit that kind of thing is to impose a cooldown, or material investment requirement to performing an experiment, and requiring controlled conditions-- then accepting whatever outcome the experiment yields as if it were a discovered rule of nature, with the same force as expecting a rock dropped from high up, to fall down and crash into the ground below.

Bullshit handwavy shit about "magic is SPEEECCIAL!" could totally apply to wishy-washy shit like sorcerers, but wizards approach magic like science. Such bullshit simply reeks when applied there.

Again, apologies, because this really is rather douchey, but is my honest opinion on the matter.

[NullForceOmega]

Yes.  Extremely douchey.  I've been doing this for more than two decades and that attitude is one I know extremely well.

Whether magic is a science or not does not imply that the practitioner has sufficient data to make the jump from "I use incantations and material components to create fire." to "The nitrogen within bat guano is used as a catalyst for a small explosion."

Yes, they are intelligent and have studied to gain mastery over their craft, that DOES NOT mean that they comprehend every element of what makes it work.

This is compounded further by whatever the supposed cosmology of the setting is, in the Forgotten Realms for instance, there are exactly two ways to harness magic, either you have access to the weave through the goddess Mystra, or you have access to the shadow weave through Shar.  Those are very literally the only ways that magic functions in that realm, even wild magic is a product of the weave, and without the weave NO MAGIC, including shadow magic, functions at all.

Interacting with the world of the game is entirely through the actualization of the rules and setting by the DM, the DM decides what works and what doesn't, and sometimes that means you get a solid "NO" when you want to do something.

[Egan_BW]

The difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is that the wizard knows how the sufficiently advanced technology they're throwing around works. :p

Now though, all that applies only in a universe that has wizards and fairly consistent magic. If the magic happens to be intelligent, and likes messing with wizards to make them think That they understand the rules, you can have some fun~

[wierd]

Which is fine---  As long as the reason for the NO is world-consistent.

We get told NO in our universe all the time.  For instance, try to destroy energy some time. The universe says NO.

Why? it's a fundemental law.

The thing is, DMs dont really like obeying their own rules, that they invoke on the spot-- when it suddenly does not profit them.  If you institute a hard rule, you really do need to fully contemplate what its consequences will be, otherwise the world becomes inconsistent, and roleplay becomes impossible.