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What is your preferred system?

Any D&D/D20
Shadowrun
World of Darkness
Palladium
Other (feel free to post about it)

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Author Topic: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!  (Read 938133 times)

Jimmy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4110 on: June 11, 2017, 05:55:58 pm »

Neo, can you update the original post with your new taboo topic? I kind of lose track of all the things you've censored and don't want to inadvertently cast animate dead.

I agree with Criptfeind about gods being possible to kill. I like some of the older pantheons for examples, like greek gods and demigods that were constantly slaughtering each other. By the time players reach a level that lets them challenge CR 20+ encounters, they're like unto gods themselves, able to create their own planes of existence with a thought, stand at the gates of the abyss and hold back the demon hordes for eternity, and so forth.

That's not to say the encounter should be a twenty by twenty foot featureless room with a god and a poorly locked treasure chest inside. A good DM should make a story out of it that's interesting for all involved. Asmodeus can only be killed at the stroke of midnight on the last night of winter by dropping a magical bowling ball on his left big toe to prevent his immediate return to life.

Personally, I think if a DM is only having fun at the expense of his players, he's not really doing it right. I hate power-trip DMs who get their jollies by giving players impossible encounters and expect them to roll over and beg for mercy, debase themselves or otherwise feed the DMs ego. It's the same concept that makes DM NPC Mary-Sue characters so annoying. At the risk of running afoul of the alignment censorship, a DM should be True Neutral, not Lawful Evil.

That's not to say you can't have a good time at their expense. For example, I just had one of my players retire their Cleric in my Pathfinder game after 53 weeks of play. We've got a new player at the table now, running an Aasimar Cleric of Nethys, the god of knowledge and magic. She also has a background as a librarian. So in order to get her into the game, she got a quest hook from her patron and local lord to go seek out a set of very rare tomes for his private collection.

I'm grinning like a Cheshire Cat as I reveal this quest hook, and every other player groans and starts shaking their heads. This is because these particular tomes are being hunted by an NPC named Tylsa Kroft, a scholar and tomb raider who's a wanted criminal for violating crown law and trespassing into restricted areas in her quest for these tomes. About six months ago, the group encountered this NPC and rescued her on the road. She convinced the group to help her in finding the first of these tomes from a necromancer's tower right up until the group smelled a rat and realised it would violate the law to enter this area. They dumped her and thought that was the end of it.

I far prefer these sorts of problems for players to face. The NPC herself is easily within the CR of the group. Frankly, the Cleric could likely kill her with one hit. But it's the messy problem of whether to aid this known criminal that is the real challenge, and the fact it evokes such a strong response from the players even six months later means I've done my job well as a DM. It's the little touches that make the NPC so memorable, like the fact that every time they try to use Sending to get a response, she always wastes the 25 word limit on babble before answering their actual question.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4111 on: June 11, 2017, 06:07:01 pm »

Jimmy, I'm not censoring anyone, and I haven't banned any topics accept alignment and racism (and the stupid steel debate, because it has nothing to do with D&D and has no place here), so I don't appreciate the attitude.  If you don't like the way I'm curating this thread then by all means start your own or start posting in the tabletop games thread, I put these rules in place for a reason.  If people are finding them stifling I am completely open to discussion of that topic via PM, because it doesn't belong in the thread.

I don't and have not ever advocated the DM having fun "at the expense of his players", I asserted that if it isn't a two-way street then someone is being an asshole and should stop.  Players or DM, doesn't matter which.  You're a power gamer who likes to cheese encounters like you're playing Pokémon, that is a valid way to play and while I don't like it or agree with it I'm not starting an argument over it.  I'm vastly more interested in evolutionary stories and the player's place in the world they inhabit, and that is an equally valid way to play the game and you have no place to say that I am wrong.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

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Criptfeind

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4112 on: June 11, 2017, 06:15:04 pm »

I haven't banned any topics accept alignment and racism (and the stupid steel debate, because it has nothing to do with D&D and has no place here)

To be perfectly fair in just the last page you did very strongly tell him to never talk about the time he killed that dragon ever again. That's sorta banning a topic. And you're both being a little snippy to each other.

On the other stuff, you guys seem to be talking past each other a little bit. Jimmy never said that the game should just be a spreadsheet of munchkins, you never said that the game should just be the DM wanking off into the face of his players. Just... Chillax a bit, I don't think either one of you really disagree a huge amount, you just each have a way of talking about this stuff that stresses the emphasis on different parts.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4113 on: June 11, 2017, 06:23:58 pm »

Yeah, it's getting slightly heated, I'll take a break for a day or so.

Jimmy, I hold you no ill will, I just don't agree with you.  I hope you won't take any of this too personally, the comment about your dragon kill was simply because there was a user banned over that argument (and I am not blaming anyone but him, he was the one who stepped way out of line in both of the topics he was arguing with people in).

I don't want people to be banned over this thread, so I'm just trying to stay ahead of potential explosions.

Edit: I mean that I'll try to avoid posting here for a day or so, I'll still be around to check in, but I won't participate.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:26:12 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

highmax28

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4114 on: June 11, 2017, 08:25:50 pm »

Quote
I'm suggesting that player characters are not.

Well as far as dungeons and dragons is concerned they are one of the few people whose souls have the power to defy and shape fate itself. They grow in power quickly and frighteningly. As well in their hands lies the fate of nations.

As far as dnd is concerned the players are special.

Now in Fantasy Warhammer (AKA: We hate the player RPG) or in Call of Cthulhu you do play an ordinary person.

In Shadowrun you play "The Best of the Best". In Scion you play a child of destiny.
My buddy wants to do a shadowrun game where we're just some thugs pulled off the street and grouped up under a crime lord who's ultimate goal is to gain enough resources by doing a bunch of other jobs to, eventually, rob one of the corporation buildings. He's heavily inspired by payday and Boondock Saints for what he's told me.

Especially with, for the most part, our Mr Johnson and our plan guy is essentially Bain (if he had the gall to watch videos and porn while on a job)

But he wanted us to really feel the progression, so I might tell him to lower the starting abilities
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just shot him with a balistic arrow, i think he will get stuned from that >.>

"Guardian" and Sigfriend Of Necrothreat
Jee wilikers, I think Highmax is near invulnerable, must have been dunked in the river styx like achilles was.
Just make sure he wears a boot.

Jimmy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4115 on: June 11, 2017, 09:03:20 pm »

Nah, it's cool Null. I just don't wanna get afoul of the topic rules if there's gonna be a new thing we're not allowed to discuss like the alignment system in D&D, the actual quality of historical Japanese steel versus its near mythical representation in fiction, or superiority of different versions of D&D. Apologies if I gave any offence, none is intended.

We're still cool to discuss dragon slaying strategies?
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4116 on: June 11, 2017, 09:44:26 pm »

Yes, by all means, I WANT discussions of fun topics like that.

I'd just like to steer clear of the minefields as much as possible.

I'll still sit out for tomorrow, as I need to step back a bit, I'm a hothead and I know it, so I'll try to keep myself from going off the deep end.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

Jimmy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4117 on: June 11, 2017, 11:58:38 pm »

No worries then. To address the topic you'd raised that a dragon wouldn't let someone leave their cave, I'd actually thought of that beforehand.

I brought with me a tribute of gold in the original scenario, an offering of peace to allow me to address the great and mighty dragon and offer my respects. Thanks to that I gained a Bluff bonus of +10 (possess convincing proof) and +5 (target wants to believe you) to my Bluff to tell the dragon I intended to go and organise a regular tribute to it from the nearby city.

I was also exceedingly careful in my wording to avoid telling an outright lie, and luckily my DM took my character's roleplaying at face value and didn't call for opposed rolls. Still, I would have had an good chance to succeed, and even if not, I had a Dimension Door in my pocket just in case things went south during the initial meeting.

It's also good strategy when going dragonslaying to try the diplomatic route first. I got the distinct impression from the DM's roleplaying of the creature that he was a simple brute and thug, which to my mind indicated it was fair game to take a crack at its horde. If it had been a brass dragon with a pigment problem I'd have approached the encounter in a much different manner.
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highmax28

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4118 on: June 12, 2017, 04:56:47 pm »

I played a Kineticist and an Artificer the few times I fought a dragon (the former technically not counting because it was a dracolich). The artificer pretty much had no real say in things despite having solid charisma compared to the bard (mind you also, everyone at the table hated me), so it was literally me healing everyone and electrocuting the dragon every now and then
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just shot him with a balistic arrow, i think he will get stuned from that >.>

"Guardian" and Sigfriend Of Necrothreat
Jee wilikers, I think Highmax is near invulnerable, must have been dunked in the river styx like achilles was.
Just make sure he wears a boot.

Neonivek

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4119 on: June 14, 2017, 07:19:10 am »

So dnd wise what is the true difference between the Divine and Arcane source?

Now I know they are directly connected and that the fabric of reality SEEMS to be an odd mixture of both. Not to mention that one can dabble somewhat with divine power without directly dealing with the divine (albeit severely stunted as a result).

4e actually split Nature and Divine as separate sources, but for now lets go with the idea that Nature and Divine power source are the same.

Now I know Divine comes from the gods, but that is for Clerics, Paladins, and technically Favored Souls. Yet that is only true in the sense that "Money comes from your boss". Not to mention there are ways around this requirement AND both "positive" and "Negative" energy are inherently divine.

---

All the while Arcane magic controls the potentiality of matter, space, and time.

Perhaps Divine deals with positive and negative energy? (Life, creation, death, and entropy?)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 07:20:52 am by Neonivek »
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4120 on: June 14, 2017, 07:59:12 am »

It varies a bit with various settings, but no, it's basically divine is granted by gods and arcane isn't.
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scriver

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4121 on: June 14, 2017, 08:16:16 am »

Divine magic is channelled from the gods through you. You ask nicely, they allow you some of their power, you fire the spell. It roughly the same relationship as with Warlocks and their masters. Divine Souls differ from Clerics and Paladins through not needing to ask nicely first, they innately have the ability/allowance to use their deity's power.

Arcane magic involves the manipulation of magic energy itself. I'm not entirely sure how it is in generic DnD or other settings, but in Forgotten Realms this is done through manipulating the Weave, which is a metaphysical construct created by Mystra, goddess of magic. This differs from divine magic in that if casting a spell is like travelling to a destination, then divine magic is getting a ride or a taxi there, while arcane magic is like looking at a map and driving there yourself.

Negative and Positive Energy are not inherently divine. There's nothing singularly arcane about matter, space, and time.
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Jimmy

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4122 on: June 14, 2017, 08:35:47 am »

Yeah, as above.

Wisdom based casters are typically drawing on another power, be it clerics from a god or god-like being, or druids from the primal forces of nature and creation. Their worship and faith to these higher powers allows them to access their spells. It's also why these classes might need to atone if they perform acts contrary to their alignment, since they're obtaining power through service to something else.

Charisma based casters are usually drawing on their own intangible connection to something larger in order to cast their spells. For classes like an oracle, it's pretty much a short-circuit that ended up tapping them into a deity's power source, with a few side effects as a result. Their magic's still divine since it's coming from another individual with deity-level power, but their way of accessing it isn't through worship but rather opening their connection a bit wider to release that power.

A sorcerer is instead using their own direct connection to raw magic itself, typically through their blood. No higher power, just them being so gosh darn pretty the universe sits down, shuts up and lets them do whatever the hell they want for a minute. It's their own power they're using, not some other creature's power.

Intelligence based casters like wizards are the lawyers, the rules munchkins, the nerds that pick apart every loop-hole in reality and study their ass off to memorise the exact combination of finger-wiggles and miscellaneous crap that lets them break reality for awhile. They're just exploiting the bad code of reality, not drawing their power from any source in particular.
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Arx

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4123 on: June 14, 2017, 09:08:38 am »

That description of wizards makes them sound like the classic competitive game tryhard.

 "Instantly immolating my enemies isn't a bug! It's tech, and it takes a very precise input sequence and timing. Instead of whining about it in the town square, why don't you get good and learn to counterspell? I bet you're a fighter, ugh."
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SOLDIER First

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
« Reply #4124 on: June 14, 2017, 09:37:06 am »

this reminds me violently of melee fanboys and i'm upset
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