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[NullForceOmega]

snip

Yah.  You talked about that meta-powergamer strat before, and it turned into an argument that made me lock the thread.  If I had been your DM you and your whole party would have been in a world of hurt if not dead.  The dragon clearly did not act with the intelligence it was born with, and you exploited numbers to cheese the fight.  And that's fine, but it's really not how a dragon should ever be handled, even a juvenile.

If a dragon is giving you time to buff, let alone allowing you to leave it's lair so you can teleport into it at will, then it is being run incorrectly.  I'd appreciate it if we can avoid another argument over powergaming, so let's drop that example forever.

On the subject of stat-blocks and codifying magical things into easy to understand data, I often wonder if giving ancient dragons and gods defined stats was a bad idea on TSR's part.  Any opinions?

[Neonivek]

There's no Symbols of Insanity traps, for starters. What traps that are there aren't on an endless trigger loop, going off every damn round either. Some of the monsters we fought aren't even mentioned in the books, either.

I think he just wants to kill players. He's sure chewed quite a few up already.

There can 100% be a Symbol of Insanity trap! There is nothing that suggests there cannot be.

Most symbol traps have a duration listed in minutes which means that until they deactivate they hit every single round.

On the subject of stat-blocks and codifying magical things into easy to understand data, I often wonder if giving ancient dragons and gods defined stats was a bad idea on TSR's part.  Any opinions?

To me it is necessary. If you aren't meant to interact with them then maybe don't add them to your game. Not stating gods is at least viable given that they are distant whispers who do not interact directly to the game.

Yet it reminds me of those games where they create "Creator Pet" people who basically just kill the players.

Not to mention "Ancient Dragons" aren't anywhere close to the top of castle. This feels very strongly of a fanbase push "Dragons are cool, so they should be top tier" and is the same logic behind 3.5 intentionally mislabling their CR.

[wierd]

It's a no-win situation NFO.

If they had not done so, there would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth that players could not challenge the gods, and then punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

Since they DID do so, there are now people lamenting that you can punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

[Neonivek]

It's a no-win situation NFO.

If they had not done so, there would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth that players could not challenge the gods, and then punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

Since they DID do so, there are not people lamenting that you can punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

You say no-win but given the people who say "Players could not challenge the gods" never let their games EVER get that far... They are entirely unaffected by this except mentally

The issue is when it works against the narrative, when the mechanics can't keep up, or when it is completely pointless.

Ancient Dragons are within the functional mechanics... While Gods (outside 4e... SORT OF!) are usually where the game starts melting into a pile of goo.

[BlackFlyme]

There can 100% be a Symbol of Insanity trap! There is nothing that suggests there cannot be.

Most symbol traps have a duration listed in minutes which means that until they deactivate they hit every single round.

I didn't mean that Symbol of Insanity doesn't exist, I said there isn't a single one in the book. The trap was for a single-use Fireball, not even max caster level, not a Permanency-d Symbol of Insanity, DC 26 Will against a bunch of level 6 characters.

Even if a Symbol is made permanent, they still have a cooldown period. This one apparently did not.

[wierd]

Untrue. Gods could very well be "real" (be able to grant wishes, alter chance, etc.), but be completely incorporeal, and so any conception of hit points is absurdity itself.

Compare concepts:

God OF destiny.

Destiny itself. (Which is conscious, and can be bargained with, but is still as ephemeral as destiny always is.)

[Egan_BW]

You can give something stats and still have it be meaningfully powerful in a way that players can't really deal with.
"Devours 1d6 investigators per turn."

[Neonivek]

Well often gods are both a manifestation AND the concept itself.

Yog-Slothoth has a "beatable" (arguably) form... But it is also time and space. (The haunting part is that in many ways... if you beat him... He LET YOU! you matter that little)

In Scion there are SEVERAL manifestations of Destiny... don't mess with them.

[wierd]

I know it does not belong here-- but I prefer the "WTF" type explanation for corprealized manifestations seen in things like StarControl II for the Orz, where they giggle uncontrollably about how silly we "bubbles" are about Orz being "bubbles", and are instead all Orz' many "Fingers".

[Criptfeind]

On the subject of stat-blocks and codifying magical things into easy to understand data, I often wonder if giving ancient dragons and gods defined stats was a bad idea on TSR's part.  Any opinions?

I think this comes down to style once again. I really see three choices here. You either don't give them stat blocks, and they stay as vaguely defined set pieces of awesome might and power. Which is perfectly fine. You give them stat blocks, and they become just another monster to murder hobo your way though on the way to rescue johnny from the well. Which is perfectly fine. Or you give them stat blocks and they are still pieces of awesome might and power, but when a player gets to that point they are also a piece of awesome might and power, able to challenge such things. Which is perfectly fine.

*cough* Also not attached to anything in particular, ability damage is something that one can become immune to from low to mid tier magic that even relatively young dragons should be able to purchase if not cast themselves, Last time I ran a dragon against a group in a game they were level 5 and it was immune to such things.*cough*

Well often gods are both a manifestation AND the concept itself.

I think this is how D&D handles it as well a lot of the time, there being these avatars of gods that are sorta the gods but sorta not them, often in the mid 20 to mid 30 cr. Presumably you can kill these for whatever reason is needed, but not actually kill the god itself? It's vague a bit though. Potentally in these settings the gods might be just another monster to slay that are a step up from avatars, say, in the mid 40s to mid 50s.

[Jimmy]

Yep, if the creature has a stat block, it's designed so that a DM can put it in front of the players and have them have a chance of defeating it.

Honestly, saying dragons are super special snowflakes makes about as much sense as sparkly emo vampires. Killing dragons is entrenched in mythical lore. It's what noble knights do when they're rescuing princesses from towers of improbable provenance. If you're running Dungeons and Dragons without the opportunity to go kill a dragon, you're literally missing 50% of the title.

Are dragons tough? Sure. But by 10th level, so are players. An average Fighter could kill every person in a small town single-handedly without breaking a sweat. An average Rogue could sneak into the king's throne room and steal the crown off his head. An average Cleric can literally raise the dead back to life and pop over to heaven to have a direct chat with his deity.

And a Wizard?

They upholster their tower's lounge suite in dragon leather.

The game's for the players, not the DM. It's a DM's job to tell a good story and throw tough but fair fights at the players to overcome. The players are supposed to be the stars of the show, and if their idea of a good time is slaying dragons, let 'em do it, I say. If they're clever they'll come up with a valid strategy that works for them. Of course, that might annoy greater, more powerful dragons in turn, so they'd best be ready to face the consequences of their actions too. But it comes back to the old adage, If It Has Stats, We Can Kill It.

It's why Paizo don't publish stats for their major deities. Cthulhu has stats, demon lords and so forth, but good luck finding a stat block for someone like Asmodeus. If they did, it'd be open season on the Dark Prince. If you want an unkillable dragon, I'd suggest Tiamat. Or possibly Dahak.

[highmax28]

To re-rail (somewhat, there are Star Wars PnP RPGs, so if someone wants to start talking levels and stats this conversation is good to go), how do people here generally handle dragons in their games?

Personally, my first reaction to any player who says they've killed a dragon (especially an ancient wyrm) is, "Not if your DM was playing it properly."

I use dragons as world-shaking events, entities that are so hideously powerful and intelligent that their very movements shape the flow of history.  Hell, I've got a setting where dragons are worshipped as gods, and as a result have actually become gods.  Tho' to be fair there are all of like fifteen dragons on that entire planet.

I use them as a boss fight. My players are cunning, so even if I drop a CR 9 dragon on a party of level 3's, they'll find a way to kill it (and they did), so I can't use them as powerful entities as you put them.

However, that's when they're alone. There are several events in the world I made where the dragons attacked everyone and if it wasn't for every race (monsterous included) working together, they would've lost utterly.

[NullForceOmega]

The game's for the players, not the DM. It's a DM's job to tell a good story and throw tough but fair fights at the players to overcome. The players are supposed to be the stars of the show...

This is only half accurate.  You're right about the DM's role, but wrong about the game being exclusively about the players.  If the DM isn't having fun also, then why the hell are they even running it.  DMing isn't supposed to be a chore, it's supposed to be part of a give-and take narrative, where everyone contributes to the game and (hopefully) everyone is happy with the experience.  Also, I'm not suggesting that dragons are a special snowflake, I'm suggesting that player characters are not.

As a very long time DM, I would tell any player who expected me to kotow to their whims to leave my table immediately, because that attitude is not acceptable to me.

On the subject of lose-lose:  I'm not sure it really is tho'.  If a player or group is dedicated to the concept of removing a god (or other insanely powerful entity) I don't think it should come down to a stat based battle, as something that actually deserves the title of "god" would in any reasonable situation simply obliterate any level of mortals.  I'm not one-hundred percent sure how I would handle it, but letting them overpower something like that through main force just seems to cheapen the very concept.  I would definitely try to find an answer that felt narratively acceptable, but I can't condone "I hit it with my axe", when it comes to something that is supposed to be representation of a fundamental component of the universe.

[Neonivek]

I'm suggesting that player characters are not.

Well as far as dungeons and dragons is concerned they are one of the few people whose souls have the power to defy and shape fate itself. They grow in power quickly and frighteningly. As well in their hands lies the fate of nations.

As far as dnd is concerned the players are special.

Now in Fantasy Warhammer (AKA: We hate the player RPG) or in Call of Cthulhu you do play an ordinary person.

In Shadowrun you play "The Best of the Best". In Scion you play a child of destiny.

but letting them overpower something like that through main force just seems to cheapen the very concept.

Why are you using the Christian god in dungeons and dragons?

[Criptfeind]

Depends on how you play the game. You can certainly greatly greatly slow down the exp gain rate and disconnect it from the idea of overcoming challenges to render pcs a bit more "normal". As is though, in most games I've played the players have advanced in power at a extremely fast rate, compared to the average person. Basically super saiyans. They fight a bit and then evolve way past any point of sanity.

I think that certainly a high level character is, no matter how they got there, a special snowflake, just like any other creature of that power level (or the setting is so high powered that dragons getting ganked shouldn't even be that rare of a thing.)

On fighting gods, I think that's SUPER heavily dependent on setting. Sometimes gods are concepts of the universe and probably unkillable. But in a lot of real life myths gods are very human, and very killable.