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[Neonivek]

If there are 10 tiers of Jedi/Sith... Darth Vader would be a 7.

At a time when most users of the Force are generally Force-sensitive at best, that is more than enough.

I think considering most Jedi in that era are dead, I think it makes him automatically a 9...

I am rating Jedi of all time... Though after doing my calculation I think Darth Vader might be a 6, but I am keeping him a 7th since he might have improved SLIGHTLY.

Suffice it to say he is DEFINATELY not at the "You die!" levels of potency.

[Egan_BW]

I've heard of sith casually popping stars and such, so if you're rating on an all-time scale vader is a 1 or 2.

[Neonivek]

I've heard of sith casually popping stars and such, so if you're rating on an all-time scale vader is a 1 or 2.

That is likely either myth or technology assisted.

Yet either way they are on the 10th tier which doesn't even include Yoda or the Emperor.

[Sirus]

Every instance I've ever heard of Force-users destroying stars or the like was done using the aid of ancient superweapons, or the efforts of many Force-users, or both.

In any case, none of these things are in play during Vader's time and are thus irrelevant to the game in question.

[Neonivek]

Every instance I've ever heard of Force-users destroying stars or the like was done using the aid of ancient superweapons, or the efforts of many Force-users, or both.

In any case, none of these things are in play during Vader's time and are thus irrelevant to the game in question.

Well there were the two Padawans who were inlove with a girl who used their force powers to destroy the entire planet.

[NullForceOmega]

To re-rail (somewhat, there are Star Wars PnP RPGs, so if someone wants to start talking levels and stats this conversation is good to go), how do people here generally handle dragons in their games?

Personally, my first reaction to any player who says they've killed a dragon (especially an ancient wyrm) is, "Not if your DM was playing it properly."

I use dragons as world-shaking events, entities that are so hideously powerful and intelligent that their very movements shape the flow of history.  Hell, I've got a setting where dragons are worshipped as gods, and as a result have actually become gods.  Tho' to be fair there are all of like fifteen dragons on that entire planet.

[Neonivek]

Personally, my first reaction to any player who says they've killed a dragon (especially an ancient wyrm) is, "Not if your DM was playing it properly."

It really depends on what dragon and how old they are.

If I remember correctly White Dragons, especially Young ones are often enslaved and used as mighty attackers.

Honestly though I prefer not to escalate dragons to prominence because they are rather poor antagonists in my mind. Isolated hoarders who prefer to be hands off. They are great bosses for dungeons, but not the bosses of the story.

Even Lord of the Rings seems to agree with this assessment.

[Criptfeind]

It really depends on what dragon and how old they are.

Pretty much yeah. A young to adolescent dragon is just a particularly smart flying snake. Older dragons are about the level of a low to mid level sorcerer with a lota meat. Ancient dragons. Well, they are strong and smart. But so are high level adventurers. It can happen.

Although yeah, how the setting plays with dragons also changes it a lot. If all the dragons in your setting are ALL ancient infinitely powered wryms, then of course killing one is somewhere between climax level and impossible. If not though, I don't see any reason for them being kill able by the right character.

I think both ways are perfectly fine to run dragons, and I've run both types of settings.

[NullForceOmega]

I'm only completely unwilling to accept the death of dragons that have reached truly ancient status, younger dragons tend to be more hot-headed and prone to acting rashly.  An ancient white dragon is still very intelligent and has centuries or even millennia of experience to draw upon (as far as 3rd ed is concerned).  A lot of my incredulity comes from the fact that many of these dragons are more intelligent naturally than it is possible for lesser beings to reach through magical means, and have outlived civilizations, not something a few (admittedly very powerful) adventures are going to actually defeat (barring extreme circumstances).

I like them as antagonists (and protagonists) because their motives are so utterly alien.  A dragon that has lived ten thousand years has experienced so much that only really esoteric things are likely to pique their interest.

I've actually got a campaign mostly mapped out that features a red dragon who has gone full-bore loony, and is trying to supplant the god of trickery as the personification of chaos.  His plan calls for (among other things): a gnomish circus, stealing an entire kingdom's left shoes, duping a party of adventurers into killing a younger dragon, and then getting himself killed and sealed into a gem on a magic sword.

[Criptfeind]

Hum, well, to me a great wrym is something that it'd take an extreme force to slay, but a high level adventuring party is exactly that extreme force. I know not everyone scales up the theme of the game along with the level of the party, which is perfectly fine. But for me when a party is at those high levels, they are the sort of world warping power that makes even dragons give pause. A great wrym is a unique and powerful being that could change the fate of the world. An adventuring party at that level is also a unique and powerful force that has almost certainly changed the fate of the world, possibly several times. To me if they wanta have at it, fair doos. We'll see who comes out on top, and it's not an obvious answer.

Edit: Another way of putting it, if I don't want the players to take on a cr:25 creature, I won't let them level up to cl:25, and if I do let them level up to cl:25, I'm fine with them killing a cr:25 creature, no matter what place that creature occupies in the setting. 

[NullForceOmega]

It certainly is something that comes down to style, my campaigns rarely reach levels beyond fifteen, so no party has ever acquired what I would consider world-warping power.  Not to mention I play hardball with my settings, and super-powerful things attract a LOT of attention from interested parties (so players at those incredible levels of power are likely to have many hard counters arrayed against them).  This is the main reason I asked the question, I've been running games for two decades and it helps to have outside perspective to keep things fresh.

I mentioned it previously, but one of my long-time friends has a saying, "Give the NPCs the intelligence they were born with."  And since I also ascribe to this theory, I tend to go to extremes when it comes to already powerful entities (like gods and dragons).

[Neonivek]

If a dragon never wanted to be seen they would never be seen... They relish in their mortality and though they hoard treasure, they also want to protect it rather than just gather it.

This is why Dragons rarely use their own magic items and never to enhance themselves (beyond to fend of Alzheimer)

Even a Great Wrym isn't THAAAAT hard to defeat relative to a being of its strength and intelligence.

[Jimmy]

My Pathfinder 10th level Conjuration Wizard was able to take on a CR 11 Juvenile Red Dragon and solo kill it in our weekly group. Basically, I used a bunch of buffs to negate the creature's damage output (Protection from Fire to block fire breath, Shield to block Magic Missiles, Mirror Image to block attacks, Freedom of Movement to block grapples, etc.), summoned three Babaus that maintained readied actions to counterspell any of the dragon's spellcasting with their Dispel Magic SLA, then I just used Calcific Touch with Piercing Spell metamagic and Dweomer's Essence along with my racial +2 bonus to spell penetration against the dragon's SR. With +22 bonus to my spell penetration roll, I just had to hit it each round and not roll a 1 on the touch AC attack.

I petrified it in four rounds.

Honestly, this strategy works for pretty much any dragon type. If you have time to buff appropriately, teleport in and tag it a few times with Calcific Touch, the fight's pretty much over. Depending on the terrain, you might need an ally who can stand next to you and teleport you adjacent to the dragon if it tries to flee via flight.

[BlackFlyme]

The DM is most definitely fucking with the adventure to make it harder than the books say.

I know it's taboo to peek into books, but things sure read a hell of a lot easier compared to what we had to go through.

There's no Symbols of Insanity traps, for starters. What traps that are there aren't on an endless trigger loop, going off every damn round either. Some of the monsters we fought aren't even mentioned in the books, either.

I think he just wants to kill players. He's sure chewed quite a few up already.

Seems to have re-written the story in ways, as well.

[scriver]

I agree with both sides. In my mind, as in how I'd prefer it, dragons both young and old should be mythical,  out-of-this-world-esque creature, more on par with titans or natural disasters than actual beasts. Stopping a dragon dragon should be like a hero wrestling a storm to calm, holding a quaking esrth down, or shoving an erupting volcano shut. Slaying a powerful dragon should be an epic achievement, in the proper meaning of the world, for mythical heroes that will be story told for generationg and the  kind of thing that thousands of years down the line still will be written eposes about.

But it is the nature of DnD that such things are not possible. Give the mythic being stats and it ceases to be larger than life. Give the Titan HP GO and it can ve brought down. Give the storm a grapple DC and it can be wrestled. Give the volcanic eruption a STR check and it can be held shut. It is not in the aim dnd as written to have dragons be what I want them to be. And that's just the way it is.